========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 08:04:15 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Nancy J. Smith" Subject: Re: Conflict Mediation assistance In-Reply-To: <199507051907.PAA24518@holmes.umd.edu> In response to Chrys' request: On Wed, 5 Jul 1995, Chrys Ingraham wrote: > We are a small women's college currently working on issues of difference > and conflict. A group of staff, faculty, students, and administrators > are working together to develop a proposal for conflict mediation > mechanisms or strategies to be put in place college wide. If anyone has > had any experience with this or knows of any readings which are useful on > this topic, we would greatly appreciate your assistance. Furthermore, if > anyone has any knowledge about conflict and women, that would also be > useful for us. > > Thanks. > > Chrys Ingraham > Sociology > Co-coordinator, Allies Center > Russell Sage College > Troy, NY 12180 > ingrac@sage.edu > Dynamic Administration: The Collected Works of Mary Parker Follett (1944) is an excellent source for conceptualizing mediation. Ury and Fisher rely heavily on her thinking in their book, Getting to Yes. There is a 1995 publication from Harvard Business Press, Prophet of Management: Mary Parker Follett, which also includes her thinking on creative integration, her proposal to replace compromise. I recently "reconsidered" her work in the fall issue of Educational Studies. The mediation center in Lancaster, PA uses her work and she is often cited in conflict negotiation sources. I'll be glad to tell you more. Her work has been an inspiration to me and I consider it vital to effective human relations! Nancy Smith Professor Women's Studies and Educational Foundations Millersville University of PA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 11:41:10 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Amy Goodloe/Women Online Subject: NEW LIST: mac-women ** please forward this announcement wherever mac women are online! I am please to announce (=finally!=) that the mac-women list is up and running and is ready for new subscribers! The list is a macintosh help forum for women only, similar in nature to internet-women-help in its twofold purpose: to provide women who are mac experts the chance to share their knowledge, and to provide women who are mac-users a comfortable, low-volume forum for learning more about all things macintosh. To get the info file on the list, do this: Address email to: majordomo@best.com In the body type ONLY: info mac-women To subscribe, do this: Address email to: majordomo@best.com In the body type ONLY: subscribe mac-women [or if you want the digest version, type: subscribe mac-women-digest] ** if your name does not appear alongside your email address (like "Jane Moore" , for example) then please type this line instead in the body: subscribe mac-women firstname lastname ( like this: subscribe mac-women Amy Goodloe ) If you have any questions about the list (that aren't answered in the info file), please don't hesitate to contact me! Cheers, --Amy 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- Amy Goodloe Women Online, Internet and Macintosh Consulting agoodloe@best.com http://www.best.com/~agoodloe/home.html 510-653-6096 PO Box 131, 5856 College Ave, Oakland, CA 94618 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Lists moderated: internet-women-help, internet-women-info, mac-women, women-online-news, lesac-net, ba-cyberdykes, and lesbian-studies NEW LIST: mac-women (why? because "real women don't do windows"! ) [for info send: info mac-women to: majordomo@best.com] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 21:57:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: WMST-L Policy on Job/Conference Announcements (User's Guide) Monthly reminder from the WMST-L User's Guide: ******************* 12) "MY UNIVERSITY HAS A JOB OPENING. MAY I POST AN ANNOUNCEMENT ON WMST-L?" WMST-L welcomes the posting of job and conference announcements, calls for papers, and the like, as long as the announcement has some connection to Women's Studies. Announcements without such a connection should NOT be sent to WMST-L. The wish to reach more female candidates, however laudable, is NOT adequate reason to post non-Women's-Studies announcements. Heavy mail volume is a persistent problem on WMST-L; the list cannot accommodate the increased volume that a more liberal posting policy would bring. (Keep in mind that each year, there are literally thousands of academic job openings. Most institutions wish to show that they have tried to reach female and minority applicants. Whereas some commercial publications charge hundreds of dollars to carry even a small ad, WMST-L is free. Thus, unless we restrict postings, the list is likely to be INUNDATED with job announcements.) ************************ Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 20:55:26 -0800 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Shaula Evans Subject: silencing girls/women with language The message below is part of an ongoing exchange I am involved in about gender inclusive/exclusive language on a consultant's discussion list. This is one of those times when I am drawing a complete blank on how to reply. If you, or anyone you know of has any suggestions for how to respond, please have them contact me, and I will be very happy to forward a resonse under their name. Thank you! Shaula Evans sevans@awinc.com >Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:07:49 -0700 >Reply-To: Consultant's discussion list >Sender: Consultant's discussion list >From: Kevin Nelson >Subject: Re: Does gender or language make a leader? >X-To: Consultant's discussion list >To: Multiple recipients of list CONS-L >Status: > >>>But my friend, >>> >>>Please use good grammar for such statements! >>>> >>>> Good visionaries *are* able to convince those around them >>>> that their visions are the correct ones. >>>> >> >> Sorry. Early Sunday mornings are not my best time... >> >Yah, even my grammar sometimes leaves a lot to be desired in the early morning. > >Personally, considering that language is meant as a means of communication, >gender differences just have to be accepted. So if I was writing a book on >management, I would tend to side with the general usage of the >all-encompassing masculine pronouns. But then, in specific examples, I would >use women and the properly corresponding feminine pronouns. > >But I wonder if this is really an "oversensitivity". Do most women feel left >out of a text that predominantly uses the general sense masculine pronoun, >or is it just a few vocal radical feminists? > >I personally think that any inspired female leader, unless she was leading a >feminist movement, would be a fool if she rejected anything that didn't >conform to her own standard of language usage. That would be almost like >Hitler commanding his troops to ignor anyone who wasn't wearing a swastika, >simply because that person could not be a true soldier. Radical feministic >ideals and leadership goals simply can't exist side-by-side. The leader that >loses his ability to look at the world objectively has already opened >himself for defeat. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 13:36:10 +0300 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Marilyn Safir Subject: Re: Using "The Story of X" In-Reply-To: <199507071805.OAA05136@holmes.umd.edu> I have been using: The Story of X as assigned reading in Psych of women classes for years. The story must be read in English as it is not possible to translate it to Hebrew. I ask the students to try to think of how it might be translated and we have great discussions on sexism in language use. I also suggest they go to children's departments and toy stories and ask for suggestions from the salesclerk regarding appropriate presents for different ages. (These are questions that can be askeed in a neutral fashin in Hebrew.) Usually the response they get, fits right in. I usually request they read the story at the beginign of the course and am ab le to refer back to it during the rmainder - at frequent intervals. And the students eith enjoy it ( clicks for many) or it gets them angry and the resulting discussions rarely require my adding my 2cents. marilyn ************************************************************************** * Marilyn P. Safir, PhD Internet: msafir@psy.haifa.ac.il * * Associate Professor Telephone: 972-4-240929/21w /245223/022h * * Department of Psychology Fax: 972-4-240966 * * UNIVERSITY OF HAIFA Telex: 46660 UNIHA * * Haifa 31905, Israel Bitnet: RSPS332@HAIFAUVM.bitnet * ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 13:18:07 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "ERINA M. MORIARTY" Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: <199507090357.XAA22836@holmes.umd.edu> On Sat, 8 Jul 1995, Shaula Evans wrote: > The message below is part of an ongoing exchange I am involved in about > gender inclusive/exclusive language on a consultant's discussion list. > > > So if I was writing a book on > >management, I would tend to side with the general usage of the > >all-encompassing masculine pronouns. But then, in specific examples, I would > >use women and the properly corresponding feminine pronouns. > > > >But I wonder if this is really an "oversensitivity". Do most women feel left > >out of a text that predominantly uses the general sense masculine pronoun, > >or is it just a few vocal radical feminists? Merry Meet! I am not by any means a "vocal radical feminist," at least not vocal & I don't think I am radical. So, as an average women living on the verge on the 21st century I do strongly feel a need for gender neutral language. The English language _does_ actually supply us with these pronouns. The only problem is that they are plural. They, them, their, etc. were once upon a time used as both singular & plural. Our problem today is convincing high school grammar teachers that it is better to say, "Should someone ask you for change, tell them no." rather than "Should someone ask you for change, tell him no." I realize many will not agree to my preference for using plural pronouns (which used to be used as singular or plural) over the masculine or "s/he" type pronouns, which I not yet figured out to pronounce :) Merry part, merry meet again, Erina Moriarty )0( emoriart@osf1.gmu.edu "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his [or her] share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 13:37:28 LCL Reply-To: RGINZBERG@EAGLE.WESLEYAN.EDU Sender: Women's Studies List From: Ruth Ginzberg Organization: Philosophy Dept., Wesleyan University Subject: A Few Vocal Radical Feminists A person asks whether the desire for gender neutral language is just a desire of a few vocal radical feminists. Without addressing the language question, I urge you to consider this: Suppose _IS_ "just" the demand of a small, vocal, radical minority. That doesn't mean that it isn't right. Nor does the fact that a view is held by "the majority" or even "the mainstream" make it right, or make opposing views wrong. The (mainstream) majority once believed that slavery in the USA was an acceptable institution. It was only a few vocal radical fringe minority groups who were claiming it was wrong. But they were right; it WAS wrong. The (mainstream) majority once thought that there was no need for women, indigenous peoples, slaves, or poor people (without property) to be "allowed" to vote in a Constitutional Democracy. Only a few radicals advocated ANY, let alone ALL of those changes. I urge people with any sense of hope for political change to continue to believe that the minority CAN be *RIGHT* and the majority can be wrong. And then I urge scholars to do the *right* thing, regardless of whether it is the most widely advocated thing, at any given time and place. Isn't this the whole reason why academic tenure is important? So that we can feel free to do HONEST research and writing, according to our best understandings of rigor and ethics and academic responsibility --- and not simply make scholarly choices out of fear of displeasing some (possibly temporary) majority? ----------- Ruth Ginzberg (rginzberg@eagle.wesleyan.edu) ------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 13:59:31 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Anne Henderson Subject: Re: Using "The Story of X" In-Reply-To: <199507091154.HAA32151@holmes.umd.edu> I may have missed it, but what issue of Ms. is"The Story of X" in? Thanks in advance! Lori Parker Binghamton University bd27594@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 11:07:27 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Coleen Maheu Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language Language both reflects and shapes our culture. We live in a patriarchal world that values men over women. Our language is a reflection of of these values. Perhaps...even more nefarious is our language's ability to create culture. Studies prove that young girls are less likely to consider occupations designated by masculine pronouns. The concept of generic masculine pronouns is a myth. The cover of one of last year's issues of Time Magazine read..."How Man Began?" Consequently, the entire article incorporated this male rhetoric. All of the illustrations were blatantly masculine. And the only reference to women was Lucy. The article spoke of man, the tool maker, man the fire maker, etc, etc, etc. Now when I hear the word man I think of a man. I think it must be extremely difficult (if not impossible) to separate the image of a male from its corresponding masculine title/pronoun/name/etc. When I hear the word fireman...a man comes to mind. Indeed women have been swallowed by male-centered language. It is up to us to change our language. Language is not static. We must use our language to empower both genders. We can only do this through the use of gender neutral language. Coleen maheu cbm-tlb@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 15:24:50 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Suzanne F. Franks" Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In reply to Shaula Evans' forwarding of a conversation on inclusive/exclusive language: If your conversation partners are REALLY wondering whether >women feel left out of a text that predominantly >uses the general sense masculine pronouns why not ask them how they might feel reading a text that uses predominantly feminine pronouns? Is it too trivial to suggest pointing out the oddity of the phrasing "general sense masculine?" I am probably not what some people would call a vocal radical feminist, though I am sure I am more vocal and radical than a lot of conservatives would prefer. I do feel very isolated from texts that use masculine pronouns for the general case, especially when that text is purporting to be inclusive or, even worse, directed at women. My favorite example: a medical text for a class I once took, discussing some aspect of physiology/immunology related specifically to women and their reproductive systems, leads in to discussion of a research result with this phrase "In man, it is seen that..." Obviously man is not at all appropriate here, and "In humans" would have been a better choice, "In women," the best choice of all. But what about situations where it is not so obvious that "man" or "him" is totally inappropriate, where man is meant to read human and him is meant to read him/her? These texts leave me feeling lonely and not included. However this is a result of my having become aware that these words which are "supposed" to include me do not really include me. Would I have been better off had feminism not made me aware of this, so that I could have gone on feeling included? NO! Because it required a considerable effort to pretend that I was a man in order to feel included, or to keep reminding myself as I read that I am meant to be included, even if that pretending was going on unconsciously in me. Perhaps one might ask why people who oppose inclusive language are so anxious to request that women keep putting out this intensive effort to feel included by masculine pronouns. I was so dumbfounded by the comparison of feminists not wanting to read texts using exclusive language to Hitler >commanding his troops to ignore anyone who wasn't >wearing a swastika, simply because that person could not be >a true soldier. The mere juxtaposition of these two hypotheticals leaves me breathless. Anyway, I don't think that calls for inclusive language necessarily imply that we refuse to read any texts that don't use inclusive language. We ARE saying that we find it more difficult and distressing to read exclusive language texts. >The leader that loses his ability to look at the world >objectively has already opened himself for defeat. In this case, I might suggest (tongue in cheek) that the choice of masculine pronouns was perfectly appropriate, since it seems to me that insisting that masculine = all humans is not a terribly objective position to occupy. Finally, in reply to the assertion that >radical feministic ideals and leadership goals >simply can't exist side-by-side. Point the author of this statement back to his/her own Hitler analogy. There was someone with some pretty radical ideals, and those ideals didn't seem to impede his leadership goals at all. Radical ideals of ANY kind can be promoted with the appropriate leadership skills and access to/control of the media. It seems radical to me to ask one-half of the population to feel included by language that specifically refers to the other one-half of the population, and yet that effort has been rather successful. Sorry for the length of this communication, I just feel so ANNOYED by this topic and particularly by opponents of inclusive language clothing themselves in objectivity, the sacred word used as a shield to repel any critique as "emotional" or "oversensitive." Shaula, feel free to forward my comments to your conversation partners if you like. Suzanne Franks sfranks@galois.fccc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 15:30:40 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Ellie Amico Subject: Re: Using "The story of X" Elizabeth-- Yes, I have used that story in an introductory women's studies class, very successfully. No fancy techniques--just had them read it and then let them discuss it. Even though the story is so old, the notion of genderlessness is still so bizarre to most students as to shock them into thinking in totally new ways. (However, some students do relate it to the character of "Pat" on Saturday Night Live!) Ellie Amico heartwell@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 14:06:25 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Carolyn Austin Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: <199507091922.PAA00410@holmes.umd.edu> I certainly do feel excluded from a text that uses only the masculine pronoun. I would suggest that one is reading much more objectively when she believes herself to be excluded from "he" and "him." It takes a much greater act of imagination and projection to believe that masculine pronouns can in fact include feminine readers. More importantly, however, I'm very troubled by your correspondant's use of the Nazi metaphor. Is this some sort of literalization of Limbaugh's feminazis? Is that what secretly authorizes the comparision between Hitler and feminists? Carolyn Austin Department of English and Comparative Literature University of California, Irvine cfaustin@uci.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 22:33:47 +0100 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Judy Evans Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: <199507091722.SAA28957@mailer.york.ac.uk> On Sun, 9 Jul 1995, ERINA M. MORIARTY wrote: > vocal & I don't think I am radical. So, as an average women living on the > verge on the 21st century I do strongly feel a need for gender neutral > language. The English language _does_ actually supply us with these > pronouns. The only problem is that they are plural. They, them, their, etc. > were once upon a time used as both singular & plural. Our problem today > is convincing high school grammar teachers that it is better to say, > "Should someone ask you for change, tell them no." rather than > "Should someone ask you for change, tell him no." > > I realize many will not agree to my preference for using plural pronouns > (which used to be used as singular or plural) over the masculine or > "s/he" type pronouns, which I not yet figured out to pronounce :) > I have the answer if I can locate the book - don't hold your breath... - an expert has just written the account of how the c19 Oxford grammarians made it all up... . 'They' is indeed perfectly all right. (Also I have some examples from an exchange on another list. But again it is a matter of finding them. --------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Evans + Politics + jae2@york.ac.uk --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 14:32:20 -0800 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Shaula Evans Subject: new list for women only From: agoodloe@BEST.COM (Amy Goodloe/Women Online) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 14:13:18 -0700 Subject: NEW LIST: mac-women I am please to announce (=finally!=) that the mac-women list is up and running and is ready for new subscribers! The list is a macintosh help forum for women only, similar in nature to internet-women-help in its twofold purpose: to provide women who are mac experts the chance to share their knowledge, and to provide women who are mac-users a comfortable, low-volume forum for learning more about all things macintosh. This message is being sent only to three women-only lists right now so that the initial subscriber base can be "built" without my having to verify every single subscribe request. So please don't forward this announcement to any other forums (unless they are also women-only) for at least four or five days. At that time I will have switched the subscribe policy to "closed," meaning that I will have to approve every subscribe request (and verify that each person is a woman). To get the info file on the list, do this: Address email to: majordomo@best.com In the body type ONLY: info mac-women To subscribe, do this: Address email to: majordomo@best.com In the body type ONLY: subscribe mac-women [or if you want the digest version, type: subscribe mac-women-digest] If you have any questions about the list (that aren't answered in the info file), please don't hesitate to contact me! Cheers, - --Amy 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- 0-+-- Amy Goodloe Women Online, Internet and Macintosh Consulting agoodloe@best.com http://www.best.com/~agoodloe/home.html 510-653-6096 PO Box 131, 5856 College Ave, Oakland, CA 94618 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 19:23:14 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Virginia T. Bemis" Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: <199507092120.RAA05972@holmes.umd.edu> While we're on the subject of whether "man" is an inclusive term, and whether we're being too sensitive when we object to it, let's consider the single most pervasive use of the term "man" or "men". It's one most people see a great many times in the course of the day. Walk down the hall where you work, folks. Somewhere there are two little rooms full of plumbing. One says "men" on the door. Go ahead, somebody, tell me that includes "women". Try and convince me it's an inclusive term when the most common use is to exclude. Repetition makes familiarity. When "men" means Keep Out: This Means You, and everybody knows it, thinking gets conditioned. Sorry about the length, but the subject has me pissed off. Virginia Bemis voice: 419 289-5120 English Department Ashland University Ashland, OH 44805 vbemis@ashland.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 20:55:14 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Rosalie R. Troester" Subject: Beijing Conference Is there anyone on the list *from Michigan* who is going to the conference? We have an active local internet discussion group and a journalist in the state would like to interview someone actually attending. Please respond privately. Thanks! Rosalie Riegle Troester Troester@tardis.svsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 21:48:09 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Laura Zick Subject: silencing girls/women with language This issue can also be looked at in terms of grammatical accuracy: the use of the generic masculine is NOT accurate. I have to laugh when academia, which purports to demand accuracy, instead rejects gender-inclusive language. Perhaps we should poll the men in our lives and ask them "does it peeve you when the world uses words like womanned spacecraft, mailwomen, firewomen, womankind and insist that these terms include you? If you are offended by this, are you a radical, vocal advocate of men's rights?" I so strongly agree with the poster who reminded us that the majority is often wrong. We owe our rights to vote, obtain birth control, and own property (etc....ad nausem) to women and men who were viewed in their times as lunatic fringe. -laura zick a thankfully and happily radical vocal feminist! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 00:22:26 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Constance J Ostrowski Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In the midst of creating a midterm exam for the course on "Language, Women, and Gender" which I'm teaching this summer, I read the post about which Shaula asked for input. Having finished making up the exam (and strongly fired up), I will now respond: The poster's reference to "all-encompassing masculine pronouns" makes clear that the poster has bought into this myth, this piece of linguistic folklore (unfortunately perpetuated by many English teacher who have been so taught by, especially the 20th century usage guides which helped perpetrate the prescribed use of the generic "man"/"he"). Casey Miller and Kate Swift, in their classic _Words & Women_ (updated ed., HarperCollins, 1991), deal with this issue, including in their discussion references to sociolinguistic studies on the confusion children experience by the ambiguity of generic uses of man/he. They also point out contra- dictions in people's use of it (eg., their reference to Erich Fromm's description of man's needs as "life, food, access to females"--pp.28-29). While they also go into the etymology of "man," Dennis Baron deals with this subject in much greater detail in his _Grammar and Gender_ (Yale UP, 1986). In addition, he demonstrates how comments about language made by (usually male) authorities over the last 200-300 years were arguments for the "naturalness" and moral correctness of such usages as generic "man"/"he"; these arguments, many of them proceeding from faulty (in many cases, circular) etymologizing, were based on the belief and supposed proved the "fact" that men are made superior to women. Beyond these two sources, and among several others, are Wendy Martyna's "Beyond the He/Man Approach" (_Signs_ 5(1980):482-93) and Dale Spender's _Man Made Language_ (Pandora, 1990). Some of these sources also make clear that it is not just "vocal, radical feminist"--and a minority to boot--who feel left out. Many of the women students in my class--of whom only one identified herself as "feminist"-- have expressed great discomfort with the generic use of "man." While the poster phrased this concern as a question, the belief in some radical (irrational? hysterical?) feminists' "oversensitivity" is obvious. Regarding the issue of majority/minority, I agree with Ruth Ginzberg's comments on the relationship of majority/minority and right/wrong. And even though the poster gravely underestimates the number of women (and men) who object to the generic use of "man," we do have to remember that a statistical minority *can* effect language change: as we discussed in my class, how often does anyone (at least in the U.S.) hear the word "Negro" used to refer to people of African descent? In the sixties, African-Americans worked for the self-determination of label change (and, from my perspective, have had much more success in this than women have with the title "Ms"). I'd referred earlier to the self-contradiction, the lack of logical consistency, in the generic use of "man"/"he": in similar ways, the poster displayed self-contradiction, especially in the very disturbing final paragraph of the post which Shaula forwarded. (The poster might also want to rethink the use of the phrase "gender differences" in the first paragraph, where it is quite imprecise and inaccurate.) I hope this helps, Shaula. Connie Ostrowski ostroc@rpi.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 22:38:03 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Katheen Drew Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: <199507100409.VAA01636@odin.cc.pdx.edu> I recently heard Ursula LeGuin read an essay that has yet to be published. She started with the assertion that she is a man and recommends you take her seriously. As evidence of this, she notes that she is a writer, and a writer knows which side *his* bread is buttered on. She admits to not being a very good man, but a man never the less. Woman is only a recent invention. Not that it hadn't been invented before. Just never got on. You had you Gertrude Stein model and your Emily Dickinson model.... Now it is too late. While she has been busy trying to be a man, she has become an old woman and old woman has not been invented yet. Kathy Drew ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 02:20:43 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Shahnaz C Saad Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: <199507100424.AAA01454@holmes.umd.edu> from "Constance J Ostrowski" at Jul 10, 95 00:22:26 am The problem with generic male nouns and pronouns is that they aren't really generic. Some might argue thet "men" refers to both males and females, but to readers and listeners, "men" usually means only males. Consider the following sentence: "the article is about the development of the uterus in rats, guinea pigs, and men." This sentence sounds absurd. Why? It sounds absurd because when we think of "men" we think only of *males*. I therefore think we should abandon use of the "generic" male noun and pronoun. Just my 2 cents... Chris Saad saad@dolphin.upenn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:41:15 +0100 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "J. Van Every" Subject: gender inclusive language I seem to remember reading somewhere that women are more likely than men to actually treat the (so-called) neutral masculine as neutral. The problem is not just that girls don't think they can do those jobs. It is that men don't think they can either. And men do most of the hiring and promoting. Jo VanEvery Keele University soa00@cc.keele.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:27:37 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Elliott Anathema Subject: Re: gender inclusive language The problems with sexism/heterosexism in English go way beyond questions of vocabulary--sexism is built into the way the language is structured, and the very concepts each of us uses to describe ideas about language. For the best discussion of this, see linguist/lesbian theorist Julia Penelope's excellent book _Speaking Freely_. Elliott writerdyke@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:30:17 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Jeanette Heinrichs Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Jul 1995 02:20:43 -0400 from I have often wondered that rather than thinking "woman" is a word that is a derivative of "man", we can look at "woman" also including "man" in a way "man" does not include women. So with this in mind, would it not be appropriate to go a step beyond gender neutral, and use "woman" as the universal pronoun? This whole insistence on the masculine "he" to represent all humans always annoys and baffles me as well. Good luck with your discussion. Jeanette Heinrichs (jheinrk@ukcc.uky.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:11:27 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Jo Ann Rosenfeld Organization: East Tennessee State University Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 9 Jul 1995 11:07:27 -0700 from Language is terribly important. I have two points: 1) when should female be use d and when woman as an adjective? Why are there female physicians and then all the rest of the physicians? Shouldn't female be saved for genitalia and anima ls? 2) as a woman in the beginning of the feminist wave in medical school (197 3-78) everything was phrased in "he". At times (and I really am secure in my w omanhood) I would put myself into the "he" - when they showed resident housing, I thought - what a nice place for my wife - what my wife?!? wake up - everythi ng there is He, and it causes you to think you are the OTHER, the ALIEN.rosenfe j@etsu.east-tenn-st.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:04:05 BSC Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Rosely Costa Cemicamp I have to write a paper intitled "The role of women in contraceptive technology development". I would like to rreceive any bibliographic reference about the matter. If you have any information, please send it to me as soon as possibl e. Thank you. Rosely Gomes Costa Rosely Gomes Costa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 10:07:31 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Julie Linden Subject: source for quotation - please help I'm trying to find the exact source of the following quotation: "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." I have exhausted the quotation books in our library - including half a dozen books of women's/feminist quotations. I suspect the author is Gloria Steinem, but I need confirmation AND a citation. If anyone can help, please reply privately. Thanks very much in advance, Julie Linden hbladm44@uconnvm.uconn.edu University of Connecticut ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 10:27:56 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Von Bakanic Organization: College of Charleston Subject: Lunatic fringe my foot! There are two things about the discussion about gender and language that are disturbing. First, I am a Radical Feminist and I am not a lunatic!!! I adhere to the theory of radical feminism which locates the root of gender oppression and the difference in women's and men's views of the world in their relationship to the means of reproduction. This theory has been around for quite a number of years, is well developed theoreticall and makes a lot of sense. Second, Nazism and Facism are the anti-thesis of Radical Feminism. Femi-Nazi is and oxymoron. It still surprises me how many of my women's study students believe it is a legitimate variety of feminism and that there are groups that identify themselves with that name. As far as I can discern there is not a single feminst theory that would disagree that language conveys sexism. Liberal, socialist, separtist and radical feminist agree that language shapes our perceptions. The lunatic position would be to deny that affect and to assume that women would not feel exclude by the sole use of masculine pronouns to refer to both women's and men's activities. _____________________________________________________________________ Von Bakanic, Ph.D. (803) 953-7105 Dept. of Sociology internet address: College of Charleston bakanicv@cofc.edu Charleston, S.C. 29424 FAX (803) 953-5738 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 10:36:04 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Jane Elza Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: <199507091922.PAA00410@holmes.umd.edu> one thing to do is to tell the person to substitute feminine pronouns for masculine ones in their conversations and correspondance for one day and see if it makes a difference in how they see things. try writing a "dear mam' letter instead of dear sir and see how that makes you feel. Dr. Jane Elza jelza@grits.valdosta.peachnet.edu Political Science Dept., Valdosta State University Valdosta, Ga. 31698 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:05:04 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kris Nelson Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: <199507100246.WAA07891@holmes.umd.edu> On Sun, 9 Jul 1995, Laura Zick wrote: > This issue can also be looked at in terms of grammatical > accuracy: the use of the generic masculine is NOT accurate. > I have to laugh when academia, which purports to > demand accuracy, instead rejects gender-inclusive language. I would definitely agree with this. As a male in this society, I find the use of the "generic" masculine irritating, partially for this reason. It just seems ridiculous to use this construct, when it is so blatantly incorrect. It might have been more accurate at one time, but it obviously is not so anymore. And I feel a distinct degree of exclusion from the use of the masculine myself, because while I don't feel it directed at *me* I still feel it. And it makes me uncomfortable. It also makes me lose a great deal of respect for the person. I can't help thinking: so, did they just miss half the population or what? Can't be a very accurate study (or whatever)! > Perhaps we should poll the men in our lives and ask > them "does it peeve you when the world uses words like womanned > spacecraft, mailwomen, firewomen, womankind and insist that > these terms include you? If you are offended by this, > are you a radical, vocal advocate of men's rights?" Peeved? Not exactly. Depends on situation, but I do *not* feel included by the term. I feel a distinct degree of separation, which is generally the point. I suppose my having my eyes opened by friends and books helps me here, but it really just seems obvious. I almost can't believe this debate still rages. Cheers, kris -- Kris Nelson krisn@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/krisn CHID/English Major Comparative History of Ideas Staff U of Wash, Seattle UWired FIG #7 Peer Adviser CHID 110 Peer Facilitator "Words create worlds" -- unknown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:25:13 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Katy Milligan Subject: argument for gender-neutral language This issue comes up with depressing regularity in introductory composition courses. In the past I have looked at the introductions to style guides and writing handbooks to help me construct my argument for gender-neutral language as effectively as possible. The _MLA Handbook_ has a couple of paragraphs on the topic in the "language and style" section, and also lists the following reference books: American Psychological Association. "Guidelines to Reduce Bias in Language." _Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association_. 4th ed. Washington: Amer. Psychological Assn., 1994. 46-60. Frank, Francine Wattman, and Paula A. Treichler, with others. _Language,Gender, and Professional Writing: Theoretical Approaches and Guidelines for Nonsexist Usage_. New York: MLA, 1989. International Association of Business Communication. _Without Bias: A Guidebook for Nondiscriminatory Communication_. Ed. J.E. Pickens, P.W. Rao, and L.C. Roberts. 2nd ed. New York: Wiley, 1982. Maggio, Rosalie. _The Nonsexist Word Finder: A Dictionary of Gender-Free Usage_. 1987. Boston: Beacon, 1989. Miller, Casey, and Kate Swift. _The Handbook of Nonsexist Writing_. 2nd ed. New York: Harper, 1988. Schwartz, Marilyn, and the Task Force of the Association of American University Presses. _Guidelines for Bias-Free Writing_. Bloomington: Indiana UP, 1995. Sorrels, Bobbye D. _The Nonsexist Communicator: Solving the Problems of Gender and Awkwardness in Modern English_. Englewood Cliffs: Prentice, 1983. Warren, Viginia L. "Guidelines for the Nonsexist Use of Language." _American Philosophical Association Proceedings_ 59 (1986): 471-84. Stick with this argument - language matters! Katy Milligan --------------- Katherine J. Milligan kmilli@ccat.sas.upenn.edu http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/kmilli/katy.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:47:09 +000 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: William Everts Subject: Anne Frank & Jewish American Women Writer "Signoff wmst-l" bill everts inet:everts@champlain.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:22:01 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DEB NORDGREN Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language - I recently read "Egalia's Daughters". One thing that stood out for me in the novel was the reversal in the use of the female nouns/pronouns. Near the end of the novel the word man, instead of menwim, was used and it stuck out like a sore thumb. Since reading the novel I have become even more conscious of the pervasiveness of the use of male nouns/pronouns in our language. My current favorite is the billboard in town advertising Chi-Chi's "the master of the margarita". Deb Nordgren Assistant Professor, Library Science and Women's Studies UW-Superior Hill Library 1800 Grand Ave. Superior, WI 54880 (715)394-8233 dnordgre@wpo.uwsuper.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:39:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Sharon Gmelch Subject: interested in your thoughts on... I am interested in any thoughts you might have on information to include on the following topics in a guide to campus issues for women students which I am preparing: *women and disabilities *the returning woman student *women of color Any thoughts/opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Sharon Gmelch Women's Studies Program Union College GmelchS@gar.union.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:53:48 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DAPHNE PATAI Subject: generic "man" In-Reply-To: <199507100424.AAA01454@holmes.umd.edu> It's not at all surprising that even schoolgirls today feel uncomfortable with the generic "man . . . he." They're not living on the moon, after all. What would be intersting to know is how much discomfort this caused to women, say, a hundred years ago. My experience is that female students have learned (out of necessity) to identify with such usages in many instances, just as they can identify with male protagonists of novels (I started asking them these questions decades ago, and the answers were pretty clear), whereas the reverse seems not to be the case. I'd say women have an advantage over men if they are able, mentally and psychically, to overcome the apparent barriers of generic 'man' usages and male characters. Amoong other things, this should strength their imaginative abilities. D. -- ====================== Daphne.Patai@spanport.umass.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:54:52 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Gina Oboler, Anthropology & Sociology, Ursinus College" Subject: Re: NEW NWSA PRESIDENT On the subject of the theme of the 1996 NWSA conference "Borders/Crossings/ Passages: Women Reinterpreting Development" -- does this mean life-cycle individual development as opposed to economic/national development? Thanks. -- Gina (roboler@acad.ursinus.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 13:10:41 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "David F. Austin" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Gender-Separated Classes Charlie Blank wrote, in response to some questions from me: >> > I cannot resist the urge to say what I think about the use of >> >required percentages of any subject matter in a classroom. >> > >The "stuff deleted" is important "stuff" >> >I have the lack >of specific examples in your hypothetical scenarios troublesome. I need to point out that the use of "" and like syntax was meant simply to avoid repeating a lot of just-posted material, and should not be misinterpreted to mean that what was deleted was unimportant. Since I share concerns about taking up too much space, I'll say that I didn't find answers to my questions in the response, and I'll let it go at that. But I do appreciate the time and thought that went into the response. And I am grateful to those who have responded very helpfully via e-mail to me with examples of relevant pedagogical practices and pertinent legal considerations. David. David F. Austin Associate Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy and Religion NCSU, Raleigh, NC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:41:29 MDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: FRANTZ SUSAN Organization: Alamogordo Branch Community College Subject: Re: generic "man" Daphne Patai writes: > What would be intersting to know is how much > discomfort this caused to women, say, a hundred years ago. reading Mary Wollstonecraft's "Vindication..." is an interesting example of her visible struggle to overcome the ideas "in" the language, by struggling with the language of the dominant writers of her time. hm. diane hodges dchodges@unixg.ubc.ca (vacationing at Frantz@nmsua.nmsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 13:50:54 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "M.P. Carroll" Subject: gender neutral language The flurry of messages on gender-neutral language in recent posts seems a good opportunity for recommending the following source for anyone interested in a short guide that might prove useful in undergraduate courses (certainly it has proven useful in my own seminars): "Words that count women in" Free copies (I got about two dozen a year ago) can be obtained by writing to: Ontario Women's Directorate 12th Floor 2 Carlton St. Toronto, Ontario CANADA M5B 2M9 It's only 36 pages long, but there are lots a good examples (to be avoided and to be imitated), a concern for identifying underlying principles and even a little historical data here and there that bolsters the case for gender neutral usage in the face of commonly-encountered arguments for the contrary. Mike Carroll Sociology Univ. Western Ontario carroll@sscl.uwo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:29:06 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Susan Basow Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language There is psychological research that demonstrates that when people (children, college students, other adults) read passages written in the supposedly generic "he" and are then asked to illustrate them, most people (males and females) depict males. This does not happen when male and female pronouns are equally represented (then half the pictures show males, as would be expected). Other research demonstrates that when newly created jobs are written with male labels (x-man), people reading those job descriptions are more likely to choose a male applicant for the job than if the job label was gender-neutral. So, don't believe for a moment, that words have no power. *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* Susan A. Basow, Psychology Dept. Lafayette College, Easton, PA 18042-1781 610-250-5294 Internet: basows@lafayette.edu *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:50:34 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Denise M Chaytor Subject: Re: source for quotation - please help In-Reply-To: <199507101414.KAA30309@holmes.umd.edu> I think it's Rebecca West. On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Julie Linden wrote: > I'm trying to find the exact source of the following quotation: > "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." > > I have exhausted the quotation books in our library - including half a > dozen books of women's/feminist quotations. > > I suspect the author is Gloria Steinem, but I need confirmation AND > a citation. If anyone can help, please reply privately. Thanks very > much in advance, > > Julie Linden > hbladm44@uconnvm.uconn.edu > University of Connecticut > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:05:06 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Lynn Schlesinger Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Re: interested in your thoughts on... Date sent: 10-JUL-1995 14:59:52 Dear Sharon and others, here are a few references re: women and disabilities (there are others, including more recent ones, these are the references I had available): Altman, Barbara Mandell 1985 "Disabled women in the social structure." Pages 69-76 in With the Power of Each Breath. Edited by Susan E. Browne, Debra Connors and Nanci Stern. Asch, Adrienne and Michelle Fine 1992 "Beyond pedestals: Revisiting the lives of women with disabilities." Pages 139-171 in Disruptive Voices, The Possibilities of Feminist Research. Edited by Michelle Fine. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press. Browne, Susan E., Debra Connors and Nanci Stern (Eds.). 1985 With the Power of Each Breath. Pittsburgh: Cleis Press.. Deegan, M.J. and N.A. Brooks 1985 Women and Disability, The Double Handicap. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Books. Fine, Michelle. and Adrienne Asch 1988a "Disability beyond stigma: Social interaction, discrimination, and activism." Journal of Social Issues 44:3-21. 1988b Women with Disabilities, Essays in Psychology, Culture and Politics. Edited by M. Fine and A. Asch. Philadelphia: Temple University Press. Lonsdale, Susan 1990 Women and Disability. New York: St. Martin's Press. Riessman, Catherine. K. 1983 "Women and medicalization: A new perspective." Social Policy 14:3-18. Rousso, Harilyn, with Susan Gushee O'Malley and Mary Severance n.d. Disabled, Female, and Proud! Photographs by Flo Fox. Boston: Exceptional Parent Press. Saxton, Marsha 1984 "Born and Unborn." Pages 298-312 in in Test-Tube Women, What Future for Motherhood. Edited by Rita Arditti, Renate Duelli Klein and Shelley Minden. Boston: Pandora Press. Saxton, Marsha and Florence Howe 1987 With Wings, An Anthology of Literature By and About Women with Disabilities. New York: Feminist Press, CUNY. Todd, Alexandra Dundas 1984 "Women and the disabled in contemporary society." Social Policy Spring:44-46. Zola, Irving Kenneth (Ed.) 1982b Ordinary Lives, Voices of Disability and Disease. Cambridge: Apple-wood Books. (has been reprinted by another publisher I think) Good Luck (and please share other references you receive! Thank you!) Lynn Schlesinger Dept. of Sociology SUNY Plattsburgh Plattsburgh NY 12901 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:30:54 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Rebecca Lynn Eisenberg Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language - In-Reply-To: <199507101632.MAA10603@holmes.umd.edu> This seemed a good time to put in a "plug" for this brilliant book that vividly diplays the power of language to shape a sexist society. Its full title is "Egalia's Daughters: A Satire of the Sexes," by Gerd Brantenberg. It was originially written in Norwegian in 1977, and translated in to English by Louis Mackay in 1985. The author has informed me that the book has also been translated into other languages, and performed on stage. It is available through the Seal Press in Seattle, Washington, and lists for about $10 in paperback. i think that the book would be useful in any literature, english, linguistics, psychology, sociology, philosophy, or political science course .... as well as in any women's studies course. rebecca eisenberg rebeca@netcom.com On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, DEB NORDGREN wrote: > I recently read "Egalia's Daughters". One thing that stood out > for me in the novel was the reversal in the use of the female > nouns/pronouns. Near the end of the novel the word man, instead > of menwim, was used and it stuck out like a sore thumb. Since > reading the novel I have become even more conscious of the > pervasiveness of the use of male nouns/pronouns in our language. > My current favorite is the billboard in town advertising > Chi-Chi's "the master of the margarita". > > Deb Nordgren > Assistant Professor, Library Science and Women's Studies > UW-Superior > Hill Library > 1800 Grand Ave. > Superior, WI 54880 > (715)394-8233 > dnordgre@wpo.uwsuper.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kristi Coulter Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language > >Perhaps we should poll the men in our lives and ask >them "does it peeve you when the world uses words like womanned >spacecraft, mailwomen, firewomen, womankind and insist that >these terms include you? If you are offended by this, >are you a radical, vocal advocate of men's rights?" Yes--the man who (inadvertantly) started this thread should be sent a copy of Lindsey Van Gelder's "The Great Person-Hole Cover Debate," which takes on the "man means man *and* woman" argument in a blunt and funny way. Kristi Coulter kristic@k.imap.itd.umich.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:53:18 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Laura Landolt Subject: Why use "sir" and "ma'am" anyway? Greetings all! I like the idea of substituting "sir" with "ma'am," but it reminds me of something I go through all the time that some of you might find humorous. If I were a singer, I'd be one of those altos of confused gender to my listeners. Unfortunately, everyone who hears my voice assumes that I'm a man. I'm also 6' tall, and, until recently, sported very short hair. But let me say here that I'm no "Pat". I'm straight, but when I go to gay bars, even there I'm struck by the look of confusion on many faces. At some gay clubs, I've even had security guards try to keep me from entering the women's room. One night, a man went up to my delightfully obnoxious roomate and told her, "Either that's the most beautiful *man* I've ever seen, or that's the most beautiful *woman* I've ever seen." To which she replied, "She's a woman. I know, because I've had her." We had a good laugh over that one, and the idiot stopped following me around. I like this confusion, as it also comes in handy in dark parking lots and while walking alone on streets in frightening areas, both at home and abroad. I've walked alone in Istanbul, Barcelona, and other large cities at night, rather secure in the fact that passersby assumed I was a man. But it gets to me sometimes. The other night a long-haired male customer told me, as a compliment, that I have a very masculine voice. After calming myself, I noted that, until the last twenty years of this century, long hair was a feminine attribute, and, given his circumstances, he should be more cautious about how he assigns gender characteristics. What makes my blood boil, however, is the fact that drive-through clerks and operators invariably use "sir" when speaking with me. If it's a drive-through and I'm in a decent mood, I drive around, look them in the eye and smile when I hand them my money. Sometimes they are really embarassed, at which point I am at a loss as to what I should reply to their effusive apologies. I feel sorry for their discomfort, but also angry that they should be so presumptuous. To the operators, I get a rather sick pleasure if I have to spell my name. Yes, that's L-A-U-R-A. Once, at an auto-parts store, the clerk said "sir" to my face, and a woman in line behind me told another customer that "that guy is ahead of me." My hair is a bit longer now, but these things still happen regularly. Anyone have a nice come-back? A way to lighten up the situation, and make THE POINT? My question is, why even use the terms, "sir" and "ma'am"? To me, it presupposes and implies too much. In addition, what do I say to the obnoxious children (and grown adults) who feel compelled to actually ask me whether I'm a man or a woman? I am proud of being a woman, but I don't like the impertinence of the question, nor the prospect of being seen as a strangely "masculine" woman. Here again, I am at a loss of how to explain, quickly, humorously, and to the point, that I am a woman, and, in my case, my characteristics are those of a woman, not a "masculine" woman. I'm thirty, and I've seen many younger, increasingly taller women. Seems to me that social conceptions of gender may have to adjust, given our greater numbers. I was 5'8 when I was nine years old, but I've overcome the anger and sadness that I had, early on, that I would never be "feminine" in the traditional sense. I was hoping that I could do my part to put the "human" into discourse, rather than see it degenerate into a new use of pronouns which subconsciously denote what is masculine and what is feminine. Any ideas? A cyber gold-star to the funniest, most informative come-back! Thanks, (happy to be who I am!) Laura ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 16:16:45 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Jo Ann Rosenfeld MD Organization: East Tennessee State University In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:04:05 BSC from As one of the few practicing physicians doing research on birth control, I can say that except for research abroad in the journal contraception, and res earch about teenagers, very little is being done, and almost none by women. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 18:07:44 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "beatrice w. dierks" Subject: Women/Birth Control In-Reply-To: <199507102020.QAA08068@holmes.umd.edu> On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Jo Ann Rosenfeld MD wrote: > As one of the few practicing physicians doing research on birth control, > I can say that except for research abroad in the journal contraception, and res > earch about teenagers, very little is being done, and almost none by women. > Jo Ann, Could you provide some insights on your comments. Is research on birth control controlled by a corporate research structure? Why aren't women involved in this specific kind of research? Bea Dierks, Women's Studies Wake Forest University "Power concedes nothing without struggle." --Frederick Douglas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:10:12 -0800 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Shaula Evans Subject: Do I keep rocking the boat? Thank you to everyone who has sent me incredibly eloquent and pertinent comments on my increasingly frustrating exchange on a consultant's mailing list. Things are getting particularly frustrating and toxic right now. I'd like to ask for advice on this once again. Here are some more messages I have received so far re: the gender posts. I am completely offended my the way some men have responded--especially those that have taken it upon themselves to tell me, OFF LIST, how to behave and basically, that I should be "LADYLIKE." What am I trying to accomplish? I'm no longer sure. I am just really angry right now about a lot of gender things, and perhaps this particular list is bearing more than it's share of my anger. On the other hand, I am truly outraged (make that, even further outraged) at the reponses by the men; and also by the fact that no one has had the humility/courage to state any support on the list--at least not so far. Do I do this in a nice, mannerly, ladylike way? Do I continue my guerilla internet campaign, and keep sending the amazing messages I'm receiving to the list? How can I respond to the negative messages from men? My instinct right now is to be *nice,* *apologetic,* *follow the rules,* and do all the other crippling, passive, female behaviors that have been conditioned into me all my life. This is not what I *want* to do; but it is certainly what I feel I *should* do. I am working to break away from all of that garbage, but I certainly have work to go. Right now I just feel angry, confused, and at a loss. If you have any suggestions, I would be thrilled to hear them. Thanks! Shaula P.S. Apologies for the length of this post. _____________ Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 22:41:55 -0400 Reply-To: Consultant's discussion list Sender: Consultant's discussion list From: Rich Clemens Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language X-To: Consultant's discussion list To: Multiple recipients of list CONS-L Status: we should be so lucky :) _____________________________ Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 06:08:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Duncan MacDonnell Subject: Re: silencing girls/women - Please DO! To: Shaula Evans MIME-Version: 1.0 Status: Hi! You've made your point at great length and by continuing to bombard this e-list with a barrage of opinions that keep restating the same thing in different ways is only overkill which only serves to annoy, beyond a few postings. We all don't need a lesson on this, particularly in such detail. If you want to continue to forward them to the original poster you are attempting to reply to you could do that and only serve in alienating his point of view further. Please cease and desist as any further excessive posting only takes away from the point you are attempting to make and makes you appear to be the unreasonable and intransigent one. Thanks, Duncan <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> "The task of leadership, the first task of concerned people, is not to condemn or castigate or deplore; it is to search out the reason for disillusionment and alienation, the rationale of protest and dissent -- perhaps indeed to learn from it." R.F.K. {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 16:03:41 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Lorraine Pozzi Subject: Re: Do I keep rocking the boat? In-Reply-To: <199507102210.SAA15524@holmes.umd.edu> Hey! I've written privately to a number of people -- women, of course -- who have commented on the gender/language posts. I've been requesting permission to repost some of their comments in a "Women's Center" on our local Free-Net, the Seattle Community Network (SCN0. What has been truly amazing to me is how many men have butted into what is clearly labeled as "A Room Of Our Own" and which has an "About Our Room" which makes it very explicit that it is for women. Also, several women have commented about how men they work with respect the need for women to have some space of their own -- nevertheless, we continue to be bombarded with bellows of "free speech" and "democracy" and even the good old Femi-Nazis (which I have never understood), equating our position with racists, and finally -- a suggestion that we remove ourselves to a private island but make sure we carry along frozen sperm! All this for a modest little discussion area, about a thousandth of the network's capacity, and less than 20% of the membership! I say RIGHT ON! So it's boring for old Duncan what's-his- face quoted below. Skip it, Dunc. You know where the delete key is, I take it. Lorraine Pozzi ___ On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Shaula Evans wrote: > > Things are getting particularly frustrating and toxic right now. I'd like > to ask for advice on this once again. > > I am completely offended my the way some men have responded--especially > those that have taken it upon themselves to tell me, OFF LIST, how to > behave and basically, that I should be "LADYLIKE." > > My instinct right now is to be *nice,* *apologetic,* *follow the rules,* > and do all the other crippling, passive, female behaviors that have been > conditioned into me all my life. This is not what I *want* to do; but it > is certainly what I feel I *should* do. I am working to break away from > all of that garbage, but I certainly have work to go. Right now I just > feel angry, confused, and at a loss. > > If you have any suggestions, I would be thrilled to hear them. No! No!! No!!! to all of the above * niceness*, the apologetic and passive nonsense above. And may I please have permission to quote you -- anonymously, if you prefer -- in the forum on SCN? We had a running title for a while on Re: Are Women Too Nice? Guess how the voting went? Ooooh, big surprise! Actually there were some surprises -- I was surprised that several women chided me for my "hostility" and said essentially that we must show love and compassion to men who referred to us with the f-word, the b-word (liberally) and the c-word. In such cases, I think the L-word is totally inappropriate! Lorraine Pozzi > Please cease and desist as any > further excessive posting only takes away from the point you are > attempting to make and makes you appear to be the unreasonable and > intransigent one. > > Thanks, > > Duncan > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 18:19:46 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Miriam Harris Subject: on 1996 NWSA In-Reply-To: <199507101656.MAA30183@holmes.umd.edu> Gina, I would say it means either. These themes are meant to attract a wide interpretation so that we have a provocative mix of panels. Miriam Harris, editor NWSAction On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Gina Oboler, Anthropology & Sociology, Ursinus College wrote: > On the subject of the theme of the 1996 NWSA conference "Borders/Crossings/ > Passages: Women Reinterpreting Development" -- does this mean life-cycle > individual development as opposed to economic/national development? > > Thanks. > > -- Gina (roboler@acad.ursinus.edu) > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 19:45:50 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Virginia T. Bemis" Subject: Re: interested in your thoughts on... In-Reply-To: <199507101906.PAA28961@holmes.umd.edu> Here are a couple more excellent books on women & disability. Connie Panzarino--The Me in the Mirror--1994, Seal Press Barbara Hillyer--Feminism and Disability--1993, University of Oklahoma Press. This one has a very thorough bibliography on the subject, and talks about some of the questions of ableism in feminism, as well as about the way most women's lives are affected by disability (guess who usually gets tapped as caregiver). Speaking as a gimp, I found both of these well-written and full of reality. BTW, not a "women and" writer, but I must recommend John Callahan's cartoons--especially the one of the gimp bathing in the lobby fountain while the hotel manager pleads, "I will personally find you a room with an accessible bathroom." Callahan is the Hothead Paisan of disability rights. Virginia Bemis voice: 419 289-5120 English Department Ashland University Ashland, OH 44805 vbemis@ashland.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 21:01:49 -0500 Reply-To: korenman@UMBC2.UMBC.EDU Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: No more rocked boats, please :-) I appreciate and share Shaula Evans' frustration over the exceptionally unenlightened thinking she has encountered on other lists. However, WMST-L is not the place to discuss this. WMST-L is not an all-purpose Women's Studies list: gender-related societal issues, for the most part, lie outside WMST-L's scope. The welcome letter tries to make this clear. There ARE lists where such discussion might be more appropriate. WOMEN, F-EMAIL, and GENDER come quickly to mind. Here are descriptions of those lists and how to subcribe: F-EMAIL is a British list whose purpose is to "facilitate discussion and information exchange on gender differences in use of computer communication, noting both the prevalent view that internetworking is a predominantly male domain, but also suggestions that females may in fact be better suited to computer-mediated communication." To subscribe, send the message JOIN F-EMAIL Your Name to MAILBASE@MAILBASE.AC.UK . GENDER is a moderated list devoted especially to "discussion of issues pertaining to the study of communication and gender." Send subscription requests (SUBSCRIBE GENDER Your Name) to COMSERVE@RPITSVM (Bitnet) or COMSERVE@VM.ITS.RPI.EDU (Internet). WOMEN describes itself as a "general purpose list, intended to be a connection between all women's groups and areas of interest for women and their friends." To subscribe, send the message SUBSCRIBE WOMEN to MAJORDOMO@WORLD.STD.COM (Internet) WMST-L's often heavy mail volume creates continual problems for subscribers with limited time, limited disk space, and/or limited funds (some people have to pay for every message they receive). I do not want people who value WMST-L as a professional tool to have to sign off because of needlessly heavy mail volume. Thus, the list must remain narrowly focused on Women's Studies teaching, research, and program administration. New subscribers who would like more discussion of this issue should send for the file FOCUS EXPLAIND (send the message GET FOCUS EXPLAIND to LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU, being sure to spell EXPLAIND as you see it here). If you decide that the list's focus does not meet your needs, you can sign off by sending the message UNSUB WMST-L to LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU . If you get the edited digest, you must add to your signoff message a second line that says AFD DEL WMST-L PACKAGE . Be sure to send this message to LISTSERV, not to WMST-L . DO NOT HIT REPLY. Please be considerate of those subscribers who have limited time, disk space, and/or money: do not add to the list's mail volume by sending messages about this issue to WMST-L. If you wish to reply to Shaula Evans, please do so privately by sending mail to SEVANS@AWINC.COM . Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. Joan Korenman ***************************************************************************** * Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu * * U. of Md. Baltimore County Bitnet: korenman@umbc * * Baltimore, MD 21228-5398 * * * * The only person to have everything done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe * ***************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:40:56 GMT+1000 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: CHRISTINA LEE Organization: Psychology, Newcastle University Subject: Re: source for quotation - please help Julie Linden wrote: > I'm trying to find the exact source of the following quotation: > "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." I'd love to know too, and I'm sure others would as well. So PLEASE if you know the source, reply to the list as a whole. Christina Lee Newcastle, Australia > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:42:17 GMT+1000 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: CHRISTINA LEE Organization: Psychology, Newcastle University Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language - It's a subtle but pervasive thing. I refuse to have a Mastercard because I find the term offensive. Christina Lee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 10:37:38 GMT+02.00 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Ms A. Washington" Organization: University of Transkei Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language I am an American in South Africa--the former Transkei area. I am both anthropologist (linguistic) and a clergywoman in the African Methodist Episcopal Church. Two recent events impact this. The first is a statement made by the Women in Ministry Group from this area (Namibia, the Eastern and Western Cape and the Kalahari area). This is a diverse episcopal area with Xhosas, Sothos, coloured Nama from Namibia and a few other assorted ethnic groups. We recently put together a statement addressing language, physioology (there was some negative reaction to a pregnant clergywoman), and equity for spouses. In both the Afrikaans and Xhosa languages, we are often addressed as the equivalent "pastors' wives". Here whenenver one stands up to speak s/he first greets the audience by its component parts. In Xhosa it is umfundisi for males and unfundisikazi for the pastor's wives. In Afrikaans, it is jeffrov. We also have started to respond to another aspect of language. The male pastors in Xhosa are called Bawo (father). Offerings are taken up by component groups once again. Dadas (men of the church) or Bawo and dadas, mamas and then youth. Twice two of us have refused to go forward with Bawos. Once when called upon by the Women's Missionary Society and another time when called upon by a male. We are clear that we did not go into ministry to become men!!!! One of my male parishoners was talking about another term and said that actually when one used it, it meant male. By definition or connotation I asked. His reply: by connotation. Language can exclude and distort reality. And the battle is being fought by women all over. If anyone is interested in the statement, I'll be glad to share it. Adande Washington A. Washington University of Transkei (0471) 302-2682 302-2595 Fax/Messages washington@getafix.utr.ac.za ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 08:40:57 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Marge Piercy Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGAUGE I have been fighting a battle with editors and copyeditors for years over "they" and "them" as neutral pronouns. Such usage goes back to Elizabethan times. Much of what people call good grammar (it is I, in English, as opposed to It is me, which is more natural to the language) comes from 18th century grammarians attempting to tame a language and establish class-linked usages at a time when the lower classes were beginning to read and write and demand materials that spoke to them. The rules were largely borrowed from Latin. Language as we experience it is always class based, race based, gender based but that doesn't mean we don't have an obligation (all of us who speak and write the language) to fight that. Yes, I always feel excluded when a door says MEN whether that door is the first sentence in a paragraph or the sign on a toilet. Whenever people write "MAN" they are seeing a male in their mind's eye, not a woman. Prehistory comes in only the masculine flavor, like history. We have the advantage in English that unlike Hebrew (re the previous message from Haifa about using "The Story of X" in English) and French, we do not need to establish the sex of an object or a person in order to make a sentence. We should make use of that freedom built into our language. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 10:59:49 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Halina Rubinstein Subject: Re: directory In-Reply-To: <199506291635.MAA05707@holmes.umd.edu> You can add to your list the Jewish Women's Studies program at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America (New York). It will be starting in the fall and the program director is Dr. Anne Lerner (anlerner@jtsa.edu). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 11:04:32 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Linda Tessier Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: <199507101510.AA19154@UNIX1.CC.YSU.EDU> Thanks to Kris Nelson for bringing up what has been on my mind in this discussion. I'm 46 and have been a radical feminist for about 25 years. My mind just keeps ringing with astonishment that we are STILL having this debate. I remember a professor of mine in graduate school about 10 years ago (at a seminary, of all places) saying, "The inclusive language debate is no longer a debate. It's over. Women won." This (male) professor then went on to specifically state that inclusive language would be required on all papers (including references to God). A more relevant question: how do we get off this culture-loop and STOP going round and round on whether or not language is or ought to be an issue? It is, it ought to be, and I'm TIRED of re-making a case that has been made so WELL so many times. There's a deeper question here. Doesn't continuing to do this drain us of strength which might be put to better use constructively as we re-invent feminism and women's studies (yet again)? This is an important task, I think, and perhaps we are repeatedly drawn away from it by continuing to defend well-established positions. Note, this is NOT a critique of those who continue to clarify these points. I find myself in that position repeatedly. But perhaps raising these issues again and again is an effective tactic to keep us on the defensive. Tess Tessier (ltessier@cc.ysu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 10:08:55 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Fleah Subject: The Story of X In-Reply-To: <199507062313.TAA05628@holmes.umd.edu> Could someone please let me know how to find a copy of _The Story of X_, or give the author? Thanks, Leah Nelson Knox College Box K-1128 Galesburg, IL 61401 lnelson@knox.knox.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 10:57:46 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: SARAH OLIVER Subject: Re[2]: source for quotation - please help I have a sticker with this quotation on it that came in the mail from NOW- possibly they can aid in the search for the source. Sarah E. Oliver olivers@river.it.gvsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 08:39:16 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Scott Kerlin Subject: Workplace Discrimination versus Harassment: Definitions Sought In-Reply-To: <199507111243.IAA12310@holmes.umd.edu> I'm wondering whether others have been perplexed by a question of how, in 1995, a distinction may be drawn between "sexual harassment" (in legal terms) and "discriminatory" behavior in the workplace. To be specific, I know there has been some progress made in the past ten years to strengthen laws protecting against sexual harassment on the job, but many times (in my personal work experience *and* my experience as a grievance representative for graduate students), the incidents of discriminatory treatment within the workplace are less blatant than a strict "sexual harassment" definition fits. Many times, a manager can create a climate within a department in which people are treated differently, often simply on the basis of their gender. An employee *knows* when this is happening, but often has no success in confronting the supervisor or perpetrator of the discriminatory treatment because the behavior is subtle, often involving an element of denial on the part of the perpetrator. Often, when I assisted with the development of a grievance case on behalf of a graduate teaching assistant against a department head or faculty member, it was difficult to "prove" that an anti-harassment provision of our labor contract had been violated, even though the environment within the department clearly was poisonous and discriminatory. The "burden of proof" usually rests upon the shoulders of the victim, and building a "compelling case" often takes a lot of time, resources, and witnesses to confirm the validity of the grievant's claims. How have others dealt with the issue of confronting the more subtle forms of discrmination in the workplace--ones that clearly have a gender component but fall short of fitting the "legal" or contractual definitions of sexual harassment? Have any researchers in the field of Women's Studies published reports on this issue? Scott Kerlin, Seattle Co-Moderator with Bobbi Smith, AERA-GSL Graduate Studies Discussion List ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 10:51:13 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: flood dawn rae Subject: Re: Re[2]: source for quotation - please help In-Reply-To: <199507111520.AA08684@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> I orginally responded to Julie as she requested on the list, but as I have seen so many inquiries, I will reply to the list. The orginal quote, "feminism is the radical notion that women are people" is attributed to Cheris Kramarae and Paula Treichler in their publication *A Feminist Dictionary*. Whether they got in somewhere else or used it previously in an article, I'm not sure, but this is a good place to start for a citation. Dawn Flood University of Illinois - Urbana/Champaign flood@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, SARAH OLIVER wrote: > I have a sticker with this quotation on it that came in the > mail from NOW- possibly they can aid in the search for the > source. > > Sarah E. Oliver > olivers@river.it.gvsu.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 12:01:30 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Elliott Anathema Subject: Re: Re[2]: source for quotation - please help I've seen it credited to Cheris Kramarae and Paula A. Treichler, from their excellent book _Amazons, Bluestockings and Crones: a Feminist Dictionary_, but I just checked the book and couldn't find it anywhere. Hmm--I've also seen it credited to the Radical Feminists of Montreal. Elliott writerdyke@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 12:23:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: lg71 Subject: Re: gender neutral language In-Reply-To: <199507101753.NAA02990@holmes.umd.edu> In re gender neutral language, in case no one has mentioned this handy book: _Words and Women_ (I forgot what comes in the title after the colon; something like, New Language for New Times) by Casey Miller and Kate Swift; the two of them also have a handbook for editors. Laura Suzanne Gordon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 12:42:27 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kelli Zaytoun Byrne Subject: help w/program I was asked to present a program on "gender issues" to a group of 14 11th and 12th graders attending a summer leadership institute at our university. I agreed and as I make time to prepare (the program is this Thursday) I realized that I'm tired of activities I've used in the past to stimulate a basic level of awareness of the impact that gender plays in our lives. I've used the "if you were to wake up tomorrow and discover that you were the 'opposite' sex, how would your life be different?" which sparks interesting discussion. I would welcome additional similar ideas that could be used in programs like this and in intro. women's studies courses. What would you do with an hour with high school leaders?....Thanks Kelli Zaytoun Byrne Director, Women's Center Wright State University kbyrne@desire.wright.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 12:00:49 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Miriam Harris Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGAUGE In-Reply-To: <199507111243.IAA10400@holmes.umd.edu> Marge, What do you mean by "they" and "them" in a battle with editor? Are you mixing plural with singular -- which I am beginning to be comfortable with in my writing even though it isnt proper and when teaching I point out the mistake. Example of such a sentence: Everyone (sing.) took their (pl) lunch in a paper bag except Anna. Of course it should be his/her to be gender neutral but so awkward. Is that what you mean? Can you find an example in one of your books? Please reply to list since this seems to be of interest to so many. Miriam Harris On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Marge Piercy wrote: > I have been fighting a battle with editors and copyeditors for years over > "they" and "them" as neutral pronouns. Such usage goes back to Elizabethan > times. Much of what people call good grammar (it is I, in English, as > opposed to It is me, which is more natural to the language) comes from 18th > century grammarians attempting to tame a language and establish class-linked > usages at a time when the lower classes were beginning to read and write and > demand materials that spoke to them. The rules were largely borrowed from > Latin. Language as we experience it is always class based, race based, > gender based but that doesn't mean we don't have an obligation > (all of us who speak and write the language) to fight that. > Yes, I always feel excluded when a door says MEN whether that door is the > first sentence in a paragraph or the sign on a toilet. > Whenever people write "MAN" they are seeing a male in their mind's eye, not > a woman. Prehistory comes in only the masculine flavor, like history. > We have the advantage in English that unlike Hebrew (re the previous message > from Haifa about using "The Story of X" in English) and French, we do not > need to establish the sex of an object or a person in order to make a > sentence. We should make use of that freedom built into our language. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:03:09 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "ERINA M. MORIARTY" Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGAUGE In-Reply-To: <199507111706.NAA30509@holmes.umd.edu> On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Miriam Harris wrote: > Marge, > What do you mean by "they" and "them" in a battle with editor? Are you > mixing plural with singular -- which I am beginning to be comfortable with > in my writing even though it isnt proper and when teaching I point out > the mistake. Example of such a sentence: Everyone (sing.) took their (pl) > lunch in a paper bag except Anna. Of course it should be his/her to be > gender neutral but so awkward. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Why should it? From what I have read once upon a time "they" and "them" and yes, "their" could be used as as both sing or pl. "His/her" is NOT gender NEUTRAL, it uses two genders. And why is the male pronoun always first? Merry part, merry meet again, Erina Moriarty )0( emoriart@osf1.gmu.edu "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his [or her] share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:07:14 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Halina Rubinstein Subject: Re: The Story of X In-Reply-To: <199507111510.LAA09060@holmes.umd.edu> I would also like to know where to get a copy of The Story of X. Thank You! Halina Rubinstein (harubinstein@jtsa.edu). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:42:03 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Shahnaz C Saad Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGAUGE In-Reply-To: <199507111706.NAA17035@holmes.umd.edu> from "Miriam Harris" at Jul 11, 95 12:00:49 pm I hate when plural and singular are mixed. You can avoid this and still be gender neutral by omitting pronouns altogether. One could rewrite Miriam Harris' sentence. > Everyone (sing.) took their (pl)lunch in a paper bag except Anna. Everyone took lunch in a paper bag except Anna. Another possibility is to make the entire sentence plural: All the workers except Anna took their lunches in paper bags. Chris ******************************** Chris Saad saad@dolphin.upenn.edu ******************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:17:54 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Christy Hammer Subject: Re: help w/program Other suggestions for exploring gender issues (in both high school and college women's studies classes) beyond the "how would your life be different if you woke up tomorrow the opposite sex?" (which has always been a winner for me in relation to generating discussion) would be to facilitate a discussion and list responses on the board for the following questions: What do you think of when you think of feminism? What do you think of when you think of a feminist? In my experience, if you give the students time and they feel comfortable in the environment, about 80-90% of responses are negative. I often go through the lists they generate and put check marks on the negative items. This has been a very powerful way for me to kick off an Intro. to Women's Studies course. Hope this helps. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:01:34 -0600 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "AY Crawford (Audrey)" Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language -Reply >one thing to do is to tell the person to substitute feminine pronouns for >masculine ones in their conversations and correspondance for one day >and see if it makes a difference in how they see things. Try using feminine pronouns with a young girl and see what a difference it makes. I ceased to believe that the gender of pronouns was a non-issue when, in showing a picture book to my 3-4 year-old daughter (about 19 years ago and before I myself would have had anything to do with feminism), I decided to use all feminine pronouns in describing the animal pictures (e.g., "here's a monkey -- she likes to sit in trees, and sometimes she likes to hang by her tail,...") It took about 2 of these picture stories for my daughter to exclaim, "Mom, are these *really* all *girls*?" Not wanting to tell a fib, I replied, "well, it doesn't say whether they are or not -- why don't we just assume they're all girls since we're both girls here together reading this." (There were no clues in the pictures to suggest female-ness -- e.g., cubs sitting next to; babies at breast, etc...) My daughter thought for several seconds before replying back (I'm not making this up!): "Well, I guess they could be girls -- I don't see a penis." I was stunned that she had noticed the pronoun -- and was even more amazed that she felt it necessary to justify (graphically!) making the assumption of female-ness. Gendered language matters a lot. Audrey Crawford crawford@shell.com >>> Jane Elza 07/10/95 08:36am >>> one thing to do is to tell the person to substitute feminine pronouns for masculine ones in their conversations and correspondance for one day and see if it makes a difference in how they see things. try writing a "dear mam' letter instead of dear sir and see how that makes you feel. Dr. Jane Elza jelza@grits.valdosta.peachnet.edu Political Science Dept., Valdosta State University Valdosta, Ga. 31698 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 17:55:30 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DAPHNE PATAI Subject: negative responses to WoSt In-Reply-To: <199507112019.QAA06688@holmes.umd.edu> Christy, I was puzzled by your message. Do you mean that if the students have less time and are less comfortable, they will come up with more positive reactions to feminism? Why should more time/comfort translate into more negative reactions? What do you think causes these negative reactions? (I guess I should also ask: Who are these students? Why are they in an introd. to Women's Studies course?). D. -- ====================== Daphne.Patai@spanport.umass.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 19:53:39 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: John Berg Subject: singular "they" In-Reply-To: <199507112218.SAA08247@holmes.umd.edu> I can't remember who, but someone on this list pointed out a couple years ago that the use of "they," etc. in the singular in order to make language more inclusive and democratic parallels the shift a couple of centuries ago to use "you" in the singular for everyone, rather than only for social "betters"--also to make language more inclusive and democratic. I have felt much more comfortable with the plural "they" ever since then. John Berg berg@tron.clas.suffolk.edu Department of Government Tel: +617-573-8126 Suffolk University Fax: +617-367-4623 Boston, Massachusetts 02108-2770 U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 21:05:45 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Christy Hammer Subject: Re: negative responses to WoSt Sorry if my response to the person wanting "new" exercises/techniques to use in WS was confusing. I had simply meant by "comfortable" that students seem to offer more responses, opinions, and questions in class when they feel they are in a fairly safe environment. By "more time" I meant to imply that this activity has been the most successful for me when I try not to rush it (e.g., use it among several others things/issues I want to get to in the course of a single class meeting.) The activity I described is a deep, emotional experience for some students as they come more in touch with all the negative stereotypes of feminists and WS we all are carrying around as baggage simply from the act of being alive on the planet. I hope this clarifies my message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 21:14:49 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Roxanne Mountford Subject: Gender Neutral Language No one has mentioned the 1980 resolution by the National Council of Teachers of English calling for the teaching of gender neutral language in the classroom. When students ask me about the "Gender- fair language policy" of the School of Humanities and Social Sciences at my school, I tell them that this rule is already 15 years old. If they were taught differently in their pre-college training, their English teachers were working against the policy of their own professional organization. Coupled with a little history of the language (cf. Marge Piercy's post), this information generally serves to inform students that gender neutral language has quietly passed into the area of rules and laws of usage and out of the realm of "politics." (Of course, we all know it is all political. But it seems long overdue to stop approaching this issue defensively.) Cheers, Roxanne Mountford Assistant Prof. of Rhetoric and Director of Writing Rensselaer Polytechnic Insitute ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 18:30:56 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kendrick Barnes Subject: Re: Re[2]: source for quotation - please help In-Reply-To: <199507111552.LAA12082@holmes.umd.edu> unsuscribe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:42:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: WOMEN'S STUDIES CENTER Subject: W.S. Information Dear Colleagues: I will greatly appreciate receiving information on the following: 1. For those who have an independent women's studies B.A. major in place, please send us your program brochure and/or any other relevant distribution material your program uses. 2. We need data on the employment/career prospects of women's studies B.A. major alumna. I have the new Luebke/Reilly book, but I am very interested in hearing about other programs on general studies on women's studies graduates and careers. Our address is: Marilyn Hoder-Salmon, Dir. Women's Studies Center Florida Intl. University DM-212 University Park Miami, FL 33199 E-mail address: WSCHODER@SERVMS.FIU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 08:46:06 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Jane M Bowers Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGAUGE In-Reply-To: <199507111243.IAA12310@holmes.umd.edu> I have just returned from an Audubon field ecology workshop in Wyoming. I was struck, as I have been many times before, that almost everyone refers to birds and animals as male. "Look at him," etc. I want to scream. I imagine about half the birds and half the animals are female. Sometimes, of course, one can tell the difference by coloration or horns or whatever. But in the cases where it is not obvious, most people use "he" and "him." Obviously people hear it and repeat it. It seems we have become more sensitive to words used about humans, but what about words used about wildlife? I think we establish the same idea of male domination when we keep refering to wildlife as masculine. I don't propose "he or she" for wildlife, but what about "it"? That seems perfectly appropriate. What do other people think? And how does one broach the issue? I just kept my mouth shut--I didn't want to criticize individuals, and there was no larger forum in which to raise the issue. What about in women's studies classes--I suppose most of us never talk about wildlife there. But when we teach about gender-specific language, couldn't we include a point about referring to birds and other wildlife? Jane Bowers University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee 414-332-9420 (phone) 414-229-6154 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 10:27:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Lee Ann Banaszak Subject: silencing girls/women with language - Linda Tressier argues that she is tired of arguing on a topic that is already won. While I agree that within universities (at least the liberal arts where many of us are situated) and within feminist communities the battle has been won, this is MOST DECIDEDLY NOT TRUE within the larger community. If we really want people's attitudes to change about language we have to be prepared to argue the case every time it comes up. The feminist community is losing the battle in many areas these days...I think largely because we have stopped proseletizing. I do not believe that just because our (largely liberal and feminist) communities have settled the issue that it is time to ignore it when the question is raised. Linda Tressier says: >My mind just keeps ringing with astonishment that we are STILL having >this debate. I remember a professor of mine in graduate school about 10 >years ago (at a seminary, of all places) saying, "The inclusive language >debate is no longer a debate. It's over. Women won." This (male) >professor then went on to specifically state that inclusive language >would be required on all papers (including references to God). A more >relevant question: how do we get off this culture-loop and STOP going >round and round on whether or not language is or ought to be an issue? >It is, it ought to be, and I'm TIRED of re-making a case that has been >made so WELL so many times. There's a deeper question here. Doesn't >continuing to do this drain us of strength which might be put to better >use constructively as we re-invent feminism and women's studies (yet >again)? This is an important task, I think, and perhaps we are >repeatedly drawn away from it by continuing to defend well-established >positions. ====================================================================== Lee Ann Banaszak Associate Professor Department of Political Science E-mail: LAB14@PSUVM.PSU.EDU The Pennsylvania State University FAX: 814/863-8979 107 Burrowes Building Telephone: 814/865-6573 or University Park, PA 16802 814/865-7515 ====================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 18:03:25 +0300 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Eira H Juntti Subject: Re: Why use "sir" and "ma'am" anyway? In-Reply-To: <199507102003.XAA09976@kantti.helsinki.fi> from "Laura Landolt" at Jul 10, 95 03:53:18 pm Dear Laura, since I read your note I've been trying to come up with a good reply, but so far have not been able to. I am from Finland, but studied in the U.S. for eight years, and am now back home. While in the U.S., I was often thought to be a man, which initially was very confusing to me because at home that never happens - I remember it having happened to me in Finland only once, when an old man thought I was a 'young boy.' The ways in which we mark gender in our appearance is simply different then how it is done in the U.S., and of course there are big differences also inside the U.S. So while in the States, people at stores at times addressed me as 'sir', or someone would come up to me and ask whether I was a man or a woman. Usually I just let it pass, tell them to mind their own business. But I will never forget the faces of two old ladies in a women's bathroom who sincerely thought I was a man: they told me I had entered the wrong bathroom, and as I was taken completely by surprise by this, I barely managed to tell them I was indeed a woman. What especially bothered me though were the kid who would question my gender, for it made me think their parents must be awfully concerned about teaching their kids to be 'proper,' distinguishable 'boys' and 'girls.' I also never understood why, if someone addressed me as a 'sir,' and then realized their mistake, felt so embarrased and apolegetic about it. I never came up with a good way to respond, and to make the POINT. The best I can say is that the people I encountered will probably remember having encountered me, and will think about, and hopefully they will also think about their own confusion. At times I try to look at it from the other side, and think how would I react if I was not sure of the gender of the person I was talking to, but still I can not come up with many occasions when that would make a big difference. (Which makes me think that the reason people feel so apologetic and embarrased is not that they believed I was a man, but that in using 'sir' they had made their assumption public. At times I'm also not sure what is the point I would want to make: if the person talking to me infuriates me, or is unpolite, the point I would like to make has not that much to do with my gender, it has more to do with their obnoxious behavior. So, if you did get any good answers, please let all of us know. Sincerely, Eira Juntti (e-mail: eira.juntti helsinki.fi) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 11:10:08 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Ellen G.Friedman" Subject: feminist theory anthologies I wonder whether you have suggestions regarding comprehensive anthologies of feminist literary theories for a graduate class in feminist literary theory and women writers. I'm considering Warhol and Herndl's FEMINISMS, but it's not up to date. Please reply privately to Friedman@tscvm.trenton.edu. Thanks, Ellen G. Friedman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 10:56:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Samuelson Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE As a college English prof. and long-time feminist, I agree about mixing pronouns. Let's don't take apart the language in order to solve our problem. Avoid the pronouns all together or switch to plural. ---------- From: WMST-L To: Multiple recipients of list WMST-L Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGAUGE Date: Tuesday, July 11, 1995 2:42PM I hate when plural and singular are mixed. You can avoid this and still be gender neutral by omitting pronouns altogether. One could rewrite Miriam Harris' sentence. > Everyone (sing.) took their (pl)lunch in a paper bag except Anna. Everyone took lunch in a paper bag except Anna. Another possibility is to make the entire sentence plural: All the workers except Anna took their lunches in paper bags. Chris ******************************** Chris Saad saad@dolphin.upenn.edu ******************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 12:23:09 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kathy Burdette Subject: inforM update The following file has been added to inforM: Educational Resources/Academic Resources by Topic/Women's Studies Resources/Computing/Guides to the Internet/ sources for women's studies/feminist information on the internet This file is the most recent edition of Laura Hunt's internet guide. To access the inforM database, telnet or gopher to INFORM.UMD.EDU. (If you do not know how to telnet or gopher, contact a local computer wizard, or try typing "telnet inform.umd.edu" or "gopher inform.umd.edu" at the main prompt of your computer account). Hit return to set the default terminal type or type "?" for a list of choices. Use either your arrow keys or number keys to select -> 4. Educational Resources 2. Academic Resources by Topic 21. Women's Studies Resources 5. Computing 3. Guides to the Internet 2. sources for women's studies/feminist information on the internet The Gopher interface has a feature that allows users to send files to their e-mail accounts. After selecting a file, either scroll to the end of the file or type "q", then press "m". The system will then prompt you for your email address. The inforM system is also accessible by anonymous ftp. FTP to INFORM.UMD.EDU. Login as "anonymous", and use your mail address as a password. Choose the "inforM" directory by typing "cd inforM". The command "cd [directory name]" will change the directory. The commands "dir" or "ls" will display a list of files in that directory. Use the command "get [filename]" to download a file into your account. The FTP pathname for this directory is: EdRes/Topic/WomensStudies/Computing/GuidesToInternet/guide-hunt Your local Gopher System may be set up to automatically link to the Women's Studies Database. Check the "Other Systems" or "Other Gophers" directory or ask your system administrator for help. Even if you do not have real Internet access, it is still possible to get files from inforM. If you are interested in this option, please email me and I will forward a file written by Mark Whitis that explains how to do this. Please remember that the system is case sensitive. Anything that appears in quotes must be typed exactly as it is here. If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to contact me. +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Kathy Burdette inforM, Room 4343 Coordinator, Women's Studies Database Computer Science Center burdette@inform.umd.edu University of Maryland (301) 405-2939 College Park, Maryland 20742 =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:49:22 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Scott Kerlin Subject: Re: Workplace Discrimination versus Harassment: Definitions Sought In-Reply-To: <199507111537.LAA15895@holmes.umd.edu> A number of people have written me privately with suggestions and information on discrimination/harassment definitions. I want to thank you all, as time limits make it difficult for me to write you each individually. However, since the issues of discrimination/harassment and overall departmental/campus climate are of ongoing interest to a number of us on the AERA-GSL Graduate Studies Discussion List, I invite you to write to us or to subscribe to GSL if you have further insights to share... Scott Kerlin and Bobbi Smith Moderators, AERA-GSL Graduate Studies Discussion List skerlin@seaccd.sccd.ctc.edu and skerlin@wln.com smithba@sol.UVic.CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 12:36:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Samuelson Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE Sorry--forgot to sign my post: Joan Samuelson jsamuels@kc.nhmccd.cc.tx.us ---------- From: WMST-L To: Multiple recipients of list WMST-L Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 10:56AM As a college English prof. and long-time feminist, I agree about mixing pronouns. Let's don't take apart the language in order to solve our problem. Avoid the pronouns all together or switch to plural. ---------- From: WMST-L To: Multiple recipients of list WMST-L Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGAUGE Date: Tuesday, July 11, 1995 2:42PM I hate when plural and singular are mixed. You can avoid this and still be gender neutral by omitting pronouns altogether. One could rewrite Miriam Harris' sentence. > Everyone (sing.) took their (pl)lunch in a paper bag except Anna. Everyone took lunch in a paper bag except Anna. Another possibility is to make the entire sentence plural: All the workers except Anna took their lunches in paper bags. Chris ******************************** Chris Saad saad@dolphin.upenn.edu ******************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:02:44 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Peg Beemer Subject: Women Studies in Community Colleges Does anyone know of a place where I can find info on Women Studies Programs in Community Colleges? Is there a file available or a www site to which anyone can direct me? Thanks PegBeemer@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 11:18:00 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Nancy Huppertz Subject: Re: help w/program One thing I have done with older students, and with fairly consistent results, is to ask them if they are aware that--before they were born-- but not really all that long ago, the help wanted ads in the newspapers were divided into Help Wanted--Male and Help Wanted--Female. (I have never met a student who knew that.) Then I ask them to speculate which occupations were listed on which pages. The vast majority of students never make a mistake. This could lead to a discussion (small groups maybe?...or, from cooperative learning--a technique I use with adults too-- a four corners activity) on language, role models, perceptions, meta messages, different values placed on "women's" and "men's" jobs... etc. Too bad you only have an hour. Nancy Huppertz huppertn@nwrel.org ---------- From: WMST-L To: Multiple recipients of list WMST-L Subject: help w/program Date: Tuesday, July 11, 1995 12:42PM I was asked to present a program on "gender issues" to a group of 14 11th and 12th graders attending a summer leadership institute at our university. I agreed and as I make time to prepare (the program is this Thursday) I realized that I'm tired of activities I've used in the past to stimulate a basic level of awareness of the impact that gender plays in our lives. I've used the "if you were to wake up tomorrow and discover that you were the 'opposite' sex, how would your life be different?" which sparks interesting discussion. I would welcome additional similar ideas that could be used in programs like this and in intro. women's studies courses. What would you do with an hour with high school leaders?....Thanks Kelli Zaytoun Byrne Director, Women's Center Wright State University kbyrne@desire.wright.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 19:46:05 +0100 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Judy Evans Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE In-Reply-To: <199507121804.TAA11004@mailer.york.ac.uk> On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Joan Samuelson wrote: > As a college English prof. and long-time feminist, I agree about mixing > pronouns. Let's don't take apart the language in order to solve our > problem. Avoid the pronouns all together or switch to plural. > ---------- Clearly linguists are divided on this issue! But surely whatever your personal preference, you would agree that there _is_ a division? And that the rules of "grammar" were indeed made up, or if you like laid down, by c19 Oxford grammarians who borrowed rules from elsewhere? I went to state schools - your public schools. But I was taught old-fashioned grammar. So _I_ know that English has strong and weak verbs - eat your hearts out, listmembers!! - except that it doesn't. That was taken from German. The info. came in quite handy when I learned German :). I think that you are right in part. That is: 'they' can be used with the plural to avoid the problem, quite a lot of the time. But not always. The British list found some convincing examples - I will try to locate those. --------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Evans + Politics + jae2@york.ac.uk --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:50:03 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Stephanie L Bressler Subject: Inquiry re: Boston resources I am a new subscriber and hope my inquiry is appropriate. I have worked with a group of faculty and staff to plan an implement a Women's Studies minor and open a Women's Resource Room at King's College, a small, Catholic liberal arts college in Northeastern PA. I will be in the Boston area Sept. 7 - 10 and would appreciate info about any conferences, meetings or other opportunities to meet with others teaching Women's Studies or involved with campus resource centers. Please respond privately. Thanks. Stephanie Bressler Political Science slbressl@rs01.kings.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 15:05:46 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Elizabeth Mazur Subject: The Story of X For those who have asked, I know of 2 places where "X: A fabulous child's story" by Lois Gould is published: The original, as far as I know, is in Ms. Magazine, 1972, Vol.1, pp. 74-76, 105-106, and reprinted (but not identically) as "The Story of X" in Doyle & Paludi (1995), Sex and Gender: The human experience. ELIZABETH MAZUR EASTERN KENTUCKY UNIVERSITY PSYMAZUR@ACS.EKU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 16:13:40 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Myrna Goldenberg Subject: Re: Women Studies in Community Colleges In-Reply-To: <199507121804.OAA04200@holmes.umd.edu> The community college caucus of the NWSA is a good source of info about WS at comm colleges. Try contacting Pauline Kayes at Parkland CC, Champaign, IL. Another good source is Sara Coulter at Towson State Univ, Towson MD; you can get a guide to curriculum transformation at comm colleges from her (the Guide has useful info about women's studies programs at comm coll) THere are other sources -- what is it you want to know? Myrna Goldenberg Montgomery College Rockville MD 20854 301 251 7417 myrnag@umd5.umd.edu On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Peg Beemer wrote: > Does anyone know of a place where I can find info on Women Studies Programs > in Community Colleges? Is there a file available or a www site to which > anyone can direct me? > > Thanks > PegBeemer@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 15:16:17 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Megan Cyrisse Parry Wondering if anyone has come across any texts/books etc. dealing with the subject of women in various religions? I have the urge to research various faiths and their treatment of women, in an attempt to somehow understand the corresponding treatment of women composers within those faiths. (Some of the earliest surviving music written by women was chant written by nuns, who had a "venue" for their music because of their position within the church...) I'm especially interested in the so-called non-traditional religions, such as witchery. Any ideas? Megan Cyrisse Parry umparry@cc.umanitoba.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 16:15:53 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Katie Ward Subject: Re: Women Studies in Community Colleges Peg Beemer writes: > >Does anyone know of a place where I can find info on Women Studies Programs >in Community Colleges? Is there a file available or a www site to which >anyone can direct me? > >Thanks >PegBeemer@aol.co Almost all of the Kentucky State Community Colleges offer WS courses. Usually two courses are offered in Introduction to Women's Studies for 3 hourse of credit. One has a humanities orienation and the other has a social studies orienation. I don't have the address for the directory of the Kentucky Community College System available. But you can get that from Dr. Kyle Wallace, Academic Advising Center Director , at Western Kentucky University 502-745-5065. He will also have the names, addresses and phone numbers of the Directors of the Individual Colleges. Please ignore the rest of this message. It is just a bunch of typos that I wwas not able to delete. Katie Ward, English Dept. , Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY 42101 wardcc@wkuvx1.wku.edu all of the Kentucky State Community Colleges offer courses in Women's Studies. Most offer two 3-hour intorduction to women's studies cpurses Scourses. Write to the Director of the Community College s somen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 17:16:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Samuelson Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE Hi, Judy-- It's not a "personal preference"; I've taught college writing courses for 22 years, and my "choice" is based on the logic of modern grammar as it has evolved. I think my being a feminist suggests I know there is a division. However, I do not feel tearing down one system to right a wrong one is satisfactory. In our almost 21st cen., "they" is plural. So we either deal with that in commonsense ways, or we come up with a non-gender pronoun referent. My_ preference_ is actually for the latter. Marge Piercy, as one example, deals with this concern in WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME, by using "per." When my students ask me what to do about pronoun reference, I suggest plural nouns and pronouns when possible, s/he and him/her if they feel comfortable with those alternatives (I find them awkward), or use of the pronoun of _their_ choice--keeping audience, logic, and the writer's voice in mind. I'd be very interested in the British List. But where the pronoun cannot be substituted, I'd rephrase the sentence rather than encourage a faulty referent. Call me a purist, but there it is. Regards, Joan Samuelson jsamuels@kc.nhmccd.cc.tx.us ---------- From: WMST-L To: Multiple recipients of list WMST-L Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 7:46PM On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Joan Samuelson wrote: > As a college English prof. and long-time feminist, I agree about mixing > pronouns. Let's don't take apart the language in order to solve our > problem. Avoid the pronouns all together or switch to plural. > ---------- Clearly linguists are divided on this issue! But surely whatever your personal preference, you would agree that there _is_ a division? And that the rules of "grammar" were indeed made up, or if you like laid down, by c19 Oxford grammarians who borrowed rules from elsewhere? I went to state schools - your public schools. But I was taught old-fashioned grammar. So _I_ know that English has strong and weak verbs - eat your hearts out, listmembers!! - except that it doesn't. That was taken from German. The info. came in quite handy when I learned German :). I think that you are right in part. That is: 'they' can be used with the plural to avoid the problem, quite a lot of the time. But not always. The British list found some convincing examples - I will try to locate those. --------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Evans + Politics + jae2@york.ac.uk --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 18:35:29 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: beatrice Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 9 Jul 1995 11:07:27 -0700 from Coleen, you're right, of course, about the effects of masculine pronouns. But in considering male domination of women, I think we must probe the overarching pattern to understand situational differences in domination: when and how the domination does and doesn't work, and when, where, how women comply, resist, an d fight back, and when, where, and how women dominate others (women and men). It's not an all-or-nothing issue. to get to change, we have to know where the soft and hard spots are. A major problem in Tannen's work, which a few poster s have mentioned, is that she totalizes women, talks about "tendencies" as tho there's a universal rule operating. beatrice bfdgc@cunyvm.cuny.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 18:45:25 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: beatrice Subject: Re: Women/Birth Control In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Jul 1995 18:07:44 -0400 from qquit ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 18:52:58 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Meridith Wulff Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <01HSSFFHPA428Y8C6E@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu> Meghan, I can't remember the author's name, but "Carnal Knowing" is an excellent book on women in religion, though primarily in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I had to read it for a class entitled "God and Gender." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 18:58:41 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: beatrice Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Jul 1995 11:04:32 -0400 from Tess, the language problem comes back because it hasn't been solved for every- one. It returns in different ways in different contexts, must be re-addressed. Not everyone knows the history - and everyone sure doesn't act as tho the issue is resolved. For the god aspect of it, which your professor solved, he thought , by fiat the S. African woman is struggling with (name Anande? sorry, I don't remember exactly) and some (many) students in your class, there's a major issue If the god is male in the sacred texts and common usage, changing language to include women tears at a deeply-held belief system. Same problem if the cleric who mediates between the god and people is "supposed to be" a man and is a woman. beatrice bfdgc@cunyvm.cuny.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 19:10:27 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: beatrice Subject: Re: Workplace Discrimination versus Harassment: Definitions Sought In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Jul 1995 08:39:16 -0700 from Scott, Catherine MacKinnon's analysis and campaign has successfully made sexual harassment sex discrimination in courts, up to the Supreme Court. She points out elsewhere that men make the laws to fit their views, however. The same is true for sexual harassment policies. What you have to do is get a policy that focuses on the behavior: did he (usually) do it or not? Sadly, I lost the battle on this at CUNY - so far. And, advise complainants to tell someone and keep notes. On the issue of agreement by a "reasonable person" that harassment occurred, see ideas in the New York State Governor's Task Force Final Report, o f Dec. 1993. It was issue by the NYS Division for Women, State of New York, Exe cutive Chamber, Albany, NY 12224. beatrice bfdgc@cunyvm.cuny.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 17:12:40 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: melinda jean boyd Subject: women/religion/witchery Megan, with regard to request for books on women in religion/witchery, have you tried _Daughters of Time_ by Mary Kinnear? Dr. Kinnear is a professor at U. Manitoba, and the book should be available in the book store there. Melinda Boyd University of British Columbia mjean@unixg.ubc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 21:30:42 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Elliott Anathema Subject: Re: help w/program you might also try having them role play how the sexes move, react, etc. Have the boys "sit like girls" and then let the girls (teens? young women?) critique it, then have the girls act out boy/male things. Let each group talk about why they chose the actions, reactions, or language they chose. This exercise gets them talking to each other, which is a great ice breaker, and can lead to a good discussion of the way gender is played in social, work and personal relationships. Elliott writerdyke@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 22:48:36 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Judith L. Poxon" Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199507122033.QAA15540@holmes.umd.edu> On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Megan Cyrisse Parry wrote: > Wondering if anyone has come across any texts/books etc. dealing with the > subject of women in various religions? I have the urge to research > various faiths and their treatment of women, in an attempt to somehow > understand the corresponding treatment of women composers within those > faiths. [...] I'm especially interested in the > so-called non-traditional religions, such as witchery. Any ideas? You might take a look at _Drawing Down the Moon_, by Margot Adler: still one of the classics on wicca, from both a historical and contemporary perspective. Judith Poxon Syracuse University, Dept. of Religion jlpoxon@mailbox.syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:29:22 -0400 Reply-To: Michelle Osborne Sender: Women's Studies List From: Michelle Osborne Subject: Women's Studies Teaching Resources--HELP! I need some help and advice, Please! I am a college instructor who will be a full time volunteer with a foundation called Teachers for Africa for the 95-96 school year. I have been assigned a posting teaching "women's/gender studies" at the University of Nairobi in Nairobi, Kenya. As you can imagine I am completely excited about this opportunity, and want to do the best job possible. However, Nairobi has been very vague about what I will teach specifically, so I guess I need to be prepared for any possibility. (Yikes!) What books would you bring to teach from and lend to students? I have a limited shipping allowance, and need to get things shipped soon so they get there. Also, are there any CD-ROMS with women's studies information on them? I am taking a laptop computer and could hook a CD-ROM onto it if it would be useful. THANKS for the help! -Michelle -- Michelle Osborne dv711@cleveland.freenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:41:32 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Linda Tessier Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language In-Reply-To: <199507122310.AA11716@UNIX1.CC.YSU.EDU> OK, I need to be more clear, but I'll be brief. Yes, absolutely, we need to continue making clear to those who genuinely wish to understand what the language issues are and why they are important. As I said, I do this, and I will continue to do this. My fatigue is directed toward a conversation which has not evolved at all over the past 20 years in which some anti-feminist voice asks, "Isn't this whole language thing really a non-issue which is only a concern to a few radical feminists?" Although in question form, I suggest that this is not a question, and we lose considerable energy engaging in debates that take "is too" "is not" "is too" "is not" form. I absolutely agree that we need to keep aware, keep informing, keep these issues alive, but we also need to learn from the fact that the above question really hasn't changed form at all over many years, in spite of so many splendid responses, and it's still getting attention. Re language and God, there's a huge discussion on this topic, but it seems to me, except in cases of direct translation, that using no pronouns at all (common practice in feminist and womanist theology) is true to the prophetic monotheistic traditions. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 10:29:42 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kelli Zaytoun Byrne Subject: thanks and religion Thank you everyone who sent me ideas for the awareness program/intro women's studies first day ideas. I found another in my archives that I had forgotten about...it's a riddle A man and his son went camping for the weekend. On the way home they were in a serious car accident. Both were critically injured and hospitalized. When the boy was brought in for surgery, the doctor said "I cannot operate, this boy is my son." How can this be? (answer to follow later!) Megan, Good books on Wicca include Wicca by Vivian Crowley/Drawing Down the Moon - someone I think may have mentioned it/and my favorite feminist Wiccan writer z budapest - Grandmother of Time is great/Spiral Dance by StarHawk and there are many others. Mary Daly's work in theology would be helpful to you like Beyond God the Father and some of her newer works. Merlin Stone, When God was a Woman - if you want to go way back. You might want to read Carol Tavris' critique of Goddess theories in the Mismeasure of Women as well. Answer to riddle: The surgeon was his mother ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 11:04:22 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Deborah Gussman Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE In-Reply-To: <199507122239.SAA25125@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> Joan, I, too, teach college writing, and deal with this issue in other courses (including WS and American lit). But I am not at all uncomfortable with "they" or other plural pronouns used with a singular referent; indeed, I don't even "hear" this as an error anymore. You say that your "'choice' is based on the logic of modern grammar as it has evolved . . ." This seems to me to be a crucial point: grammar evolves. As such, I find it hard to accept the idea of "purity' in language or grammar. And given the importance of gender neutral language (I think this is something about which those of this on the list already agree), I lean towards increasing the options we have for handling these issues. I do feel a need to warn students that the choices they make will not always be warmly accepted by other professors or other people or even other feminists, in other words that all language use is contextual . . . I know I have had students in WS classes who were very excited about using variant forms of "woman" (Womyn, wimmin, etc.), usages which haven't ever appealed to me, resulting, at any rate in some interesting dialogues about the politics of language. That's my two cents . . . Deborah Gussman Liberal Studies/Mount Vernon College 2100 Foxhall Road, NW Washington, DC 20007 On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Joan Samuelson wrote: > Hi, Judy-- > > It's not a "personal preference"; I've taught college writing courses for 22 > years, and my "choice" is based on the logic of modern grammar as it has > evolved. I think my being a feminist suggests I know there is a division. > However, I do not feel tearing down one system to right a wrong one is > satisfactory. In our almost 21st cen., "they" is plural. So we either > deal with that in commonsense ways, or we come up with a non-gender pronoun > referent. My_ preference_ is actually for the latter. Marge Piercy, as one > example, deals with this concern in WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME, by using > "per." > > When my students ask me what to do about pronoun reference, I suggest plural > nouns and pronouns when possible, s/he and him/her if they feel comfortable > with those alternatives (I find them awkward), or use of the pronoun of > _their_ choice--keeping audience, logic, and the writer's voice in mind. > > I'd be very interested in the British List. But where the pronoun cannot be > substituted, I'd rephrase the sentence rather than encourage a faulty > referent. Call me a purist, but there it is. > > Regards, > > Joan Samuelson > jsamuels@kc.nhmccd.cc.tx.us > ---------- > From: WMST-L > To: Multiple recipients of list WMST-L > Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE > Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 7:46PM > > On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Joan Samuelson wrote: > > > As a college English prof. and long-time feminist, I agree about mixing > > pronouns. Let's don't take apart the language in order to solve our > > problem. Avoid the pronouns all together or switch to plural. > > ---------- > > Clearly linguists are divided on this issue! But surely whatever > your personal preference, you would agree that there _is_ a division? > And that the rules of "grammar" were indeed made up, or if you like > laid down, by c19 Oxford grammarians who borrowed rules from > elsewhere? > I went to state schools - your public schools. But I was taught > old-fashioned grammar. So _I_ know that English has strong and > weak verbs - eat your hearts out, listmembers!! - except that it > doesn't. That was taken from German. The info. came in quite > handy when I learned German :). > > I think that you are right in part. That is: 'they' can be used > with the plural to avoid the problem, quite a lot of the time. > But not always. > The British list found some convincing examples - I will try to > locate those. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Judy Evans + Politics + jae2@york.ac.uk > --------------------------------------------------------------- > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 08:03:39 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was haber@IGC.ORG From: Danielle Gelfand Subject: P.O.V. FILM SERIES PRESENTS: HOME ECONOMICS P.O.V., public television's award-winning non-fiction film series invites questions, comments, and discussion about HOME ECONOMICS, a film about the lives of suburban Los Angeles homeowners who came looking for the American Dream, and found that the complex realities of societal pressures and the daily commuter grind have created an ironically fragile lifestyle. The national broadcast date is July 18th; check listings or call your public TV station for local broadcast dates and times. To join an "electronic mailing list" where the film and the issues it raises will be discussed, send a message to: majordomo@igc.apc.org. In the body of the message type "subscribe pov-economics." Filmmaker Jenny Cool examines life in the new suburbia through frank conversations with residents of Antelope Valley. Nonbroadcast cassettes are distributed by New Day Films (22- D Hollywood Avenue, Hohokus, NJ 07423, phone 800-343-5540 fax 201-652-1973). This mailing list is one component of P.O.V. Interactive, a model project designed to explore the potential use of on-line technologies (including an interactive Web site- http://www.pbs.org/pov) to transform television into a catalyst for lively and thoughtful interchange. For more information send an e-mail message to info@pov.org. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 13:53:58 LCL Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Green Deborah Subject: Re: Gender Neutral Language Re: the discussion of "they"--it is my understanding that a singular "they" is gaining acceptance. Two friends of mine--Ann Reed and Sharon Zuber--recently published an articvle on this in something like "College English." I'm sorry I don't have more precise info, but they are both on vacation at the moment. Deborah Green College of William & Mary Williamsburg, VA 23185 dxgree@facstaff.wm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 10:16:58 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Marsha Miller Subject: School Secrets for sale The New York State American Association of University Women has produced: School Secrets; Scenarios about Sexual Harassment with a Workshop Leader's Guide, as part of AAUW's Initiative for Educational Equity Project. I ordered a copy while at the biennial national convention last month, and am very pleased with the product. Here's some info from the brochure, followed by ordering information: it's a dramatic presentation using student (high school) actors plus a unique step-by-step workshop guide, which equals a dynamic and cost-effective sexual harassment workshop following the drama, workshop participants, actors and leaders share their reactions during a discussion, together and in break-out groups... they are encouraged to work with appropriate school professionals to formulate and implement school sexual harassment policies. Copies available $20 ($15 for AAUW members) -- postage & handling included in price. Order from New York State AAUW, POB 427, Etna NY 13063-0427 -- all proceeds go to the AAUW Educational Foundation and Legal Advocacy Fund. ------------------------------------------- Please send _____ copies of SCHOOL SECRETS to: NAME: ________________________________________ ADDRESS: ____________________________________ _____________________________________________ AAUW BRANCH ______________________________ or ORGANIZATION ____________________________ PHONE _____________________________________ Enclosed find a check for $ _____________ Please let us know where the workshop packets are being used. Circle everything that pertains to you: School: Public Independent Religious Teacher: Preschool Elementary Middle School High School College/University Administrator: Building District State Social Service Agency Community: PTA Teacher Organization Administrator Association Theater Group Arts Group Religious Institution Other ______________________________ If you just want the real brochure, I don't have a definitive source, but the New York AAUW member who was working the booth is CArol Stull, 2622 N Triphammer Rd, Ithaca NY 14850; 607 257 0256 or 257 2195 ----------------------------------------------- If you're an Indiana AAUW branch member or Member at Large, feel free to contact me; otherwise please use the addresses above. *********************************** Marsha Miller, Instruction Librarian Indiana State University Libraries Terre Haute IN 47809 Internet: libmill@cml.indstate.edu Phone: 812/237-2604 Fax: 812/237-2567 ===========my brain hurts======================= ================================================ "precious facts, genuine truths, priceless knowledge"... and all for free!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 11:44:29 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Davidson Subject: Re: Women Studies in Community Colleges The new Community CVollege caucus chair for NWSA is Barbara Horn.She is in Women Studies at Nassau Community College.This is a result of the election at this year's conference...Mary Davidson ,Liason officer for NWSA.. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 11:22:51 -0500 Reply-To: Nicole M Rosenau Sender: Women's Studies List From: Nicole M Rosenau Subject: Mixing Singulars and Plurals? In-Reply-To: <3003e4bd0f18002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- I am confused about comments regarding =D2mixing plurals and singulars=D3 i= n=20 response to Judy Evans and Marge Piercy. It seems to me that they VERY=20 CLEARLY SAID that =D2they/them/their=D3 were not always regarded as solely= =20 plurals. If =D2they/them/their=D3 are not plurals then one is not mixing= =20 singulars and plurals when one uses =D2they/them/their=D3 with =D2everyone= =D3 and=20 other singulars. THEREFORE, Judy Evans and Marge Piercy were not=20 speaking of mixing plurals and singulars. =20 =20 The posts about mixing singulars and plurals SIMPLY IGNORED the=20 contention of Judy Evans and Marge Piercy that THERE IS AN ARGUMENT in=20 support of using =D2they/them/their=D3 as singulars as well as plurals,=20 although they only gave the barest outline of what that argument might=20 be. Arguments are not countered by merely digging in one=D5s heels and=20 reasserting one=D5s original position. =20 --- The catch in their (plural :-) argument is the past tense. Even if=20 restricting =D2they/them/their=D3 to the plural was just a power play by c1= 9=20 Oxford grammarians, it is now commonly understood and accepted as the=20 =D2correct=D3 usage. =20 =20 This, however, is only further confirmation of how language changes. If=20 =D2they/them/their=D3 can evolve from singular-or-plural to plural only, I= =20 see no reason why =D2they/them/their=D3 cannot evolve back from plural only= =20 to singular-or-plural. Language changes constantly to meet the changing=20 needs of its users (that us). Let us allow it to continue to evolve to=20 meet our needs. =20 =20 (The belief that the only REAL English is Contemporary U.S. Textbook=20 English is a pet peeve of mine -- I recently met a student from England=20 whose spelling had been corrected because she used the common British=20 spellings.) =20 Nic Rosenau (rosen014@maroon.tc.umn.edu) =20 Philosophy Department, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA= =20 MINITEX Library Information Network, MN Higher Education Coordinating Board --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 12:12:02 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Ruth Schauer Subject: Gender neutral language The reference for the article by Ann Reed and Sharon Zuber mentioned in Deborah Green's post is as follows Sharon Zuber and Ann M. Reed, "The Politics of Grammar Handbooks: Generic 'HE' and Singular 'THEY," College English, Vol 55. Number 5. September 1993, pp. 515-530. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 13:20:25 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Judith L. Poxon" Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199507122256.SAA27500@holmes.umd.edu> On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Meridith Wulff wrote: > "Carnal Knowing" is an excellent book on women in religion, though > primarily in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I agree that this is an excellent book, but fairly tightly focussed in its subject matter, which is indicated in the subtitle: _Female Nakedness and Religious Meaning in the Christian West_. The book is by Margaret R. Miles (Boston: Beacon Press, 1989). Judith Poxon Syracuse University, Dept. of Religion jlpoxon@mailbox.syr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 12:52:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Samuelson Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE Deborah, I _am_ uncomfortable with encouraging my students to make what many of their other professors and future employers _will_ consider an error. I am much more interested in _developing_ gender-free language than in forcing modern grammar to our will. Yes, the language is evolving; currently, however, "they" in the kind of formal writing we are all talking about is plural in the world we are preparing our students to write in and for. My politics are critically important to me; but they do not take precedence over my responsibility to my students as their _writing_ instructor. I will not deliberately encourage them to commit a grammatical error; instead, I will help them find gender-neutral solutions. ---------- From: WMST-L To: Multiple recipients of list WMST-L Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE Date: Thursday, July 13, 1995 11:04AM Joan, I, too, teach college writing, and deal with this issue in other courses (including WS and American lit). But I am not at all uncomfortable with "they" or other plural pronouns used with a singular referent; indeed, I don't even "hear" this as an error anymore. You say that your "'choice' is based on the logic of modern grammar as it has evolved . . ." This seems to me to be a crucial point: grammar evolves. As such, I find it hard to accept the idea of "purity' in language or grammar. And given the importance of gender neutral language (I think this is something about which those of this on the list already agree), I lean towards increasing the options we have for handling these issues. I do feel a need to warn students that the choices they make will not always be warmly accepted by other professors or other people or even other feminists, in other words that all language use is contextual . . . I know I have had students in WS classes who were very excited about using variant forms of "woman" (Womyn, wimmin, etc.), usages which haven't ever appealed to me, resulting, at any rate in some interesting dialogues about the politics of language. That's my two cents . . . Deborah Gussman Liberal Studies/Mount Vernon College 2100 Foxhall Road, NW Washington, DC 20007 On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Joan Samuelson wrote: > Hi, Judy-- > > It's not a "personal preference"; I've taught college writing courses for 22 > years, and my "choice" is based on the logic of modern grammar as it has > evolved. I think my being a feminist suggests I know there is a division. > However, I do not feel tearing down one system to right a wrong one is > satisfactory. In our almost 21st cen., "they" is plural. So we either > deal with that in commonsense ways, or we come up with a non-gender pronoun > referent. My_ preference_ is actually for the latter. Marge Piercy, as one > example, deals with this concern in WOMAN ON THE EDGE OF TIME, by using > "per." > > When my students ask me what to do about pronoun reference, I suggest plural > nouns and pronouns when possible, s/he and him/her if they feel comfortable > with those alternatives (I find them awkward), or use of the pronoun of > _their_ choice--keeping audience, logic, and the writer's voice in mind. > > I'd be very interested in the British List. But where the pronoun cannot be > substituted, I'd rephrase the sentence rather than encourage a faulty > referent. Call me a purist, but there it is. > > Regards, > > Joan Samuelson > jsamuels@kc.nhmccd.cc.tx.us > ---------- > From: WMST-L > To: Multiple recipients of list WMST-L > Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE > Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 7:46PM > > On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Joan Samuelson wrote: > > > As a college English prof. and long-time feminist, I agree about mixing > > pronouns. Let's don't take apart the language in order to solve our > > problem. Avoid the pronouns all together or switch to plural. > > ---------- > > Clearly linguists are divided on this issue! But surely whatever > your personal preference, you would agree that there _is_ a division? > And that the rules of "grammar" were indeed made up, or if you like > laid down, by c19 Oxford grammarians who borrowed rules from > elsewhere? > I went to state schools - your public schools. But I was taught > old-fashioned grammar. So _I_ know that English has strong and > weak verbs - eat your hearts out, listmembers!! - except that it > doesn't. That was taken from German. The info. came in quite > handy when I learned German :). > > I think that you are right in part. That is: 'they' can be used > with the plural to avoid the problem, quite a lot of the time. > But not always. > The British list found some convincing examples - I will try to > locate those. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Judy Evans + Politics + jae2@york.ac.uk > --------------------------------------------------------------- > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 13:01:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Samuelson Subject: Re: Gender Neutral Language It may be gaining "acceptance," but that does not mean it is correct. A lot of people say "theirselves"; lots of folks say "Billy and me are going. . ." My son's principal said "irregardless" in a parents' meeting; lots of people do. Shall we accept these errors in formal writing because people use them? These words and constructions are utterly illogical, and so is "anyone/a person. . .they/their." Until we come up with gender-free pronouns, I encourage my students to use plural; s/he; him/her; or to use the singular pronoun of their choice--with some logic and attention to audience. Joan Samuelson ---------- From: WMST-L To: Multiple recipients of list WMST-L Subject: Re: Gender Neutral Language Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 1:53PM Re: the discussion of "they"--it is my understanding that a singular "they" is gaining acceptance. Two friends of mine--Ann Reed and Sharon Zuber--recently published an articvle on this in something like "College English." I'm sorry I don't have more precise info, but they are both on vacation at the moment. Deborah Green College of William & Mary Williamsburg, VA 23185 dxgree@facstaff.wm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 14:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Marilyn Myerson (DO)" Subject: Gender-Neutral Language, etc. I am heartened by our ability to bring creative perspectives to the discussion of language, as we do with every topic, and I am continually stimulated by the range and substance of our postings. Re: language, I am concerned about the suggestions that we not tear down a system that works, because we must bear in mind the artificiality and arbitrariness of our language, its history of formulation in a sexist and racist and classist society, and, also, its amazing flexibility and ability to adapt to new vocabularies and new forms. These are points that I first learned about myself when I started teaching W.S. over 20 years ago and they are as pertinent today as ever. Let the "they" who formulate and accredit language usage be understood as real human beings contextualized in real societies, and let us see *ourselves* as the creators and validators we are! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 11:13:44 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Sharon Tremble Subject: Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE In-Reply-To: Joan Samuelson "Re: GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE" (Jul 12, 10:56am) The conversation about gender-neutral language has brought me out of lurking mode.... I am a very dedicated gender-neutral language user. For one year, I worked as a technical writer preparing public works contracts. The department was headed by a thirty-something woman who had been raised in Catholic schools; she didn't come across as a 'radical feminist', but even she recognized the importance of gender-neutral language. We would produce contracts and specifications that were 100 pages long -- and not once was the pronoun 'he' or 'him' used in the document. We did not violate, or disregard, the accepted English grammar rules in our writings. Personally, it grates on my ears like fingernails on a chalkboard to hear singular and plural mixed in a sentence. Sentences can *always* be re-written to avoid use of 'he' and 'him' and 'his', without resorting to using 'they' to refer to a single person. In reading newspapers, etc. these days I have another pet peeve about language usage that can drive me batty at times: using the word 'girl' to refer to a human female over the age of menstruation. Grrrrrr....... And it happens *all* the time. Complaints are laughed at ( I've tried). [One of the most ridiculous examples: speaking of the 'women and girls' who seek abortion services. If a human female has need of abortion services, she is not, by definition, a 'girl') I am continually astounded at how people seem blind to the insult being hurled when a woman is referred to as a 'girl'. Black men were called 'boy' for centuries, as a deliberate insult. Everyone knew it was an insult, and today the practice is rightfully seen as reprehensible bigotry. But very few people see the parallel in calling women 'girls'. *LOTS* of consciousness -raising is needed here. Best regards, Sharon Tremble -- Sharon Tremble sharon@indy.remss.com Santa Rosa, California ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 13:27:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Samuelson Subject: Re: Mixing Singulars and Plurals? Hi Nic-- Marge Piercy is a novelist, not a list member. I was using her example of "per" as a non-gender pronoun. I'm confused by your reference to tense; pronouns have case and number, not tense. I did not dig in my heels: they/their is simply not singular, and the attempts to force them (!) is political rather than logical. Nor did I avoid the issue of gender neutral language: I was specific in my suggestions for working to solve the problem. Although I do discuss audience, I never correct a British student's spelling in my classes--because these are NOT misspellings. Mixing singular and plural referents IS incorrect in Standard American Edited English used in formal writing. Standard American English may be a pet peeve of yours, and I do understand, but it is what professors and employers generally expect in this country. Joan Samuelson ---------- From: WMST-L To: Multiple recipients of list WMST-L Subject: Mixing Singulars and Plurals? Date: Thursday, July 13, 1995 11:22AM ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- I am confused about comments regarding =D2mixing plurals and singulars=D3 i= n=20 response to Judy Evans and Marge Piercy. It seems to me that they VERY=20 CLEARLY SAID that =D2they/them/their=D3 were not always regarded as solely= =20 plurals. If =D2they/them/their=D3 are not plurals then one is not mixing= =20 singulars and plurals when one uses =D2they/them/their=D3 with =D2everyone= =D3 and=20 other singulars. THEREFORE, Judy Evans and Marge Piercy were not=20 speaking of mixing plurals and singulars. =20 =20 The posts about mixing singulars and plurals SIMPLY IGNORED the=20 contention of Judy Evans and Marge Piercy that THERE IS AN ARGUMENT in=20 support of using =D2they/them/their=D3 as singulars as well as plurals,=20 although they only gave the barest outline of what that argument might=20 be. Arguments are not countered by merely digging in one=D5s heels and=20 reasserting one=D5s original position. =20 --- The catch in their (plural :-) argument is the past tense. Even if=20 restricting =D2they/them/their=D3 to the plural was just a power play by c1= 9=20 Oxford grammarians, it is now commonly understood and accepted as the=20 =D2correct=D3 usage. =20 =20 This, however, is only further confirmation of how language changes. If=20 =D2they/them/their=D3 can evolve from singular-or-plural to plural only, I= =20 see no reason why =D2they/them/their=D3 cannot evolve back from plural only= =20 to singular-or-plural. Language changes constantly to meet the changing=20 needs of its users (that us). Let us allow it to continue to evolve to=20 meet our needs. =20 =20 (The belief that the only REAL English is Contemporary U.S. Textbook=20 English is a pet peeve of mine -- I recently met a student from England=20 whose spelling had been corrected because she used the common British=20 spellings.) =20 Nic Rosenau (rosen014@maroon.tc.umn.edu) =20 Philosophy Department, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA= =20 MINITEX Library Information Network, MN Higher Education Coordinating Board --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 14:37:50 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Deborah Grayson Subject: women/lit/medicine I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for a project (and a class) I am working on on women, literature, and medicine. I am primarily interested in texts by women of color in the U.S. though I eventually plan to expand this. I am looking for novels that portray doctor/patient relationships, women as healthcare providers and/or healers,represenations of women and illness, or anything about women's experiences with the healthcare system or illness in general. Books I am already examining include Mama Day, The Salt Eaters, The Bluest Eye among others. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. PLease respond privately (if there are others who are interested in what I come up with I will post a bib later). Deborah Grayson drgn@uhura.cc.rochester.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:02:37 -1000 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Miriam Fuchs Subject: Re: feminist theory anthologies In-Reply-To: <9507121512.AA28309@uhunix4.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu> Please confirm that this has reached you privately without copies going to WMST. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 15:13:52 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Marilyn Bonnell Subject: "They" as singular and plural As far as common usage of "they" when referring to one person, I think many people use it (and perhaps don't even realize it). For instance, if someone phones and someone else answers the phone, I am inclined to say, "What'd they want?" even when I know that only one person was making the call. [Hope I made myself clear!] Marilyn Bonnell MFBONN@ark.ship.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:30:24 -0500 Reply-To: korenman@UMBC2.UMBC.EDU Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: ending the discussion of language Hi. The discussion of singular vs. plural pronouns has been interesting, but I think the time has come to bring it to a close. It is now producing few genuinely new insights and too much repetition and unproductive arguing ("it's OK" "no it's not!" "yes it is!" "no it's not!"). Those who still want to take issue with what has been said should contact the posters privately, not via WMST-L. Please be considerate of the many subscribers for whom the heavy volume of mail is a serious problem. And please let's NOT move from this linguistic issue to a consideration of the hundreds of other ways in which English language usage is problematic or offensive. General discussion of gender-related societal issues lies mainly outside WMST-L's focus. Those who wish to discuss linguistic sexism should probably take the discussion to a list like GENDER, whose focus is gender and communication, or to WOMEN, where such discussions have taken place in the past, or (to see what can happen if such discussions AREN'T kept in check) to WORDS-L, an English Language Discussion List whose listowner has at times had to raise the "threshold" to permit the list to send out more than 300 messages PER DAY! Here are the subscription details for these lists: GENDER is a moderated list devoted especially to "discussion of issues pertaining to the study of communication and gender." Send subscription requests (SUBSCRIBE GENDER Your Name) to COMSERVE@RPITSVM (Bitnet) or COMSERVE@VM.ITS.RPI.EDU (Internet). WOMEN describes itself as a "general purpose list, intended to be a connection between all women's groups and areas of interest for women and their friends." To subscribe, send the message SUBSCRIBE WOMEN to MAJORDOMO@WORLD.STD.COM (Internet) WORDS-L is a VERY active English Language Discussion List. To subscribe, send the message SUBSCRIBE WORDS-L Your Name to LISTSERV@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Internet) or LISTSERV@UGA (Bitnet). (It is also available on Usenet as bit.listserv.words-l .) Many thanks, once again, for your understanding and cooperation. Joan Korenman ***************************************************************************** * Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu * * U. of Md. Baltimore County Bitnet: korenman@umbc * * Baltimore, MD 21228-5398 * * * * The only person to have everything done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe * ***************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:29:47 -0600 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kim Loutzenhiser Organization: SAINT LOUIS UNIVERSITY St. Louis, MO Subject: Re: silencing girls/women with language I wanted to discuss the term "chic" in English and the term "chica" in Spanish. Is this a direct translation? Does the term have negative connotations? I had a long discussion over these two terms and there is disagreement in our department over the meaning of the terms. Most people felt that they did not want to be called either. Kim Lout2kk@sluvca.slu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 18:14:26 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Judith L. Poxon" Subject: Re: feminist theory anthologies In-Reply-To: <199507131905.PAA19460@holmes.umd.edu> On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Miriam Fuchs wrote: > Please confirm that this has reached you privately without copies going > to WMST. > I don't understand this request: was it sent to the list in error? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:22:19 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Sara Brownmiller Subject: email address for Cynthia Ozick In continuing to try to help a faculty member research Jewish American women writers, we are trying to find out if Cynthia Ozick has an email address. Can anyone help? thanks! Sara Brownmiller Women's Studies Librarian University of Oregon Library ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 11:31:31 GMT+1000 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: CHRISTINA LEE Organization: Psychology, Newcastle University Subject: Massey University, New Zealand Is there anyone out there who can give me any information on Women's Studies at Massey University? Please reply privately to lee@psychology.newcastle.edu.au Thanks Christina Lee ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 22:37:15 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Janet T. Marquardt-Cherry" Subject: Re: women/lit/medicine These are not about people of color, but they are about women and illness: Gail Albert, Matters of Chance, New York, 1982 and Alice Hoffman, At Risk, New York, 1988. Jan Marquardt (cfjtm@eiu.edu) (217) 581-3968 (office) Art Department, FAA 204 (217) 581-3410 (messages) Eastern Illinois University (217) 345-6437 (home) Charleston, Il 61920-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 09:04:54 -0400 Reply-To: Ingrid Alisa Bowleg Sender: Women's Studies List From: Ingrid Alisa Bowleg Subject: Lesbian Research Network Lesbians who do research are invited to participate in the development of a Lebsian Research Netwrok to shrare infomration on all aspects of lesbain reserach. Currently under development by Judy Bradford and Caitlin Ryan, who conducted the National Lesbian Health Care Survey, the Network seeks to provide access to information, technical assistance and mentoring by initiating a range of activities which include: (1) Developing a communications and information sharing system for lesbian research issues and resources. (2) Formalizing a network of mentors at universities and training centers throughout the country to provide support for studnets and peer support for lesbian researchers and academics. (3) Providing access to technical assistance and specialised expertise from skilled researchers, methodologists and statisticians to assist in designing studies, preparing funding proposals and publishing results. Through funds provided by an Uncommon Legacy Foundation, we are currently conducting a national survey of lesbian researchers and students who are training for research careers. The survey will identify lesbian researchers from all disiplines, collect information on areas of expertise, mentoring capacity and needs, training opportunities within their agency or institution, experiences conducting research and level of instiutional support for lesbian resarch and education. Results will be used to implement various network activities including a publication of a Lesbian Researchers Directory (however, listing in the directory is optional). For additional information, contact: Judy Bradford, Virginia Commonwealth University, (804) 828-6033, jbradfor@hibbs.vcu.edu or Caitlin Ryan, Basile Ryan, Inc., (202) 232-0188, caitlinon@aol.com. Please feel free to forward this posting to anyone who may be interested in the network. Thanks. Lisa Bowleg Women's Studies Program Georgetown University Internet: lisabow@gwis.circ.gwu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 09:15:19 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Delese Wear Subject: Re: women/lit/medicine In-Reply-To: <199507131839.OAA28108@holmes.umd.edu> from "Deborah Grayson" at Jul 13, 95 02:37:50 pm uh, she says with some shyness, there's this book called LITERARY ANATOMIES: WOMEN'S BODIES AND HEALTH IN LITERATURE (SUNY, 1994) that i co-authored with lois lacivita nixon, that may be of interest to you. we divided it into chapters on birth, coming of age, menopause, breast cancer, and aging...if nothing else, the bibliography would probably be useful. delese wear northeastern ohio universities college of medicine dw@uhura.neoucom.edu 216-325-2511 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 09:30:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "JAYNE FLEENER 325-3604 (405 COLLEGE OF EDUCATION OU)" Subject: Ontology of Metaphor I have been following the discussion of gender-neutral language with some interest. Much of my research has been examining metaphors for understanding personal epistemologies and underlying theory. I'd like to play devil's advocate and suggest there is no such thing as gender-neutral language. The metaphors we use reveal an ontology steeped in patriarchy. Jayne Fleener University of Oklahoma da5234@uokmvsa.backbone.uoknor.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 10:35:15 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Katherine Side Subject: Re: Mixing Singulars and Plurals? In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Jul 1995 13:27:00 CDT from Joan Samuelson, I fail to see why a novelist cannot also be a list member! Katherine Side klside@vm1.yorku.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 10:08:37 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Kathleen P. King" Subject: Reply to In-Reply-To: <199507122033.QAA03014@holmes.umd.edu> Hi I ama pastor's wife, and doctoral student and college prof... been interested in meshing feminist ideology with evangelicalism... finally found a good book you might be interested in.. don't be offended by her characterization of feminism however... if you need to skip to the theology section :) R.M. Groothius, _Women caught in the conflict_. Baker Books isbn 0801063043 Also...froma totally different angle...books by Mary Daly try to bring feminism into traditional Christianity... you should be able to find some of what you are looking for in these... Keep in touch Kathleen P. King | Pennsylvania Institute of Technology | Faculty: Computers & Science pgkpking@cyber.widener.edu | Widener Univ: Ed. D. Program | Technical Editor, Jalas&L Paper Mail: Ms. Kathy King Penn. Institute of Technology Fax: (610) 565-0609 800 Manchester Ave. Voice Mail: (610) 892-1592 Media PA 19063-4098 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 08:11:44 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Gundersen Subject: language I've been away from my computer account and so had to catch up on the language debate. Let's not confuse things. It is entirely unnecessary to mix singular and plural forms of pronouns (and yes people today do understand "They" etc as plural. Just ask them how many people does it mean.) Any good writer can find multiple ways to say something. A number of those do not require using his/her. Pronoun's are an option standing in for nouns. Rewriting can change the mix of pronoun's you need. I would rather help students see how many ways there are to state something than just "fix" a pronoun. Most students need to see that you can radically restructure sentences they have put to paper. This is also true in the world at large. Good writing can be non-sexist without mixing pronouns. Antecedents become very confused under the "mixed" approach. Let's go for clarity. As for the concern about inclusive language in the general public, of course it is still an issue. When feminists "won" the intellectual debate, there were many people who were not a part of it. Some of those individuals have their very identities wrapped up in believing that they have always been included, that society NEVER excluded them. Others benefitted from the exclusion. Why should we think that they changed their language overnight. A new generation has grown up in a world where language is mixed and they hear all sorts of useages. They have also grown up (thank goodness) in a society where many of the most blatant forms of exclusion have been muted. Why should they think there is a problem unless we alert them to it? Joan Gundersen, CSU San Marcos jrgunder@coyote.csusm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 08:14:02 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Michelle Shoresman Subject: Re: feminist theory anthologies In-Reply-To: <199507131905.PAA19460@holmes.umd.edu> from "Miriam Fuchs" at Jul 13, 95 09:02:37 am > > Please confirm that this has reached you privately without copies going > to WMST. > I received your message. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 11:45:45 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kathy Stolley Subject: workshop suggestions I have been asked to put together some workshops for women staying in a battered women's shelter. The topics can be wide-ranging and in the past have included subjects such as HIV/AIDS, massage therapy, going back to school, etc. Although I have plenty of classroom experience teaching the sociology of many appropriate topics, and much of what I have done may be adjusted for use in these workshops, they still present a new situation to me. If anyone has experience they are willing to share regarding similar types of workshops and, in particular, suggestions for topics, materials, etc. I would greatly appreciate your assistance. Please respond privately to me at: kss100f@oduvm (bitnet) kss100f@oduvm.cc.odu.edu (internet) I will post the replies to the list if there is sufficient interest. Thanks in advance! Kathy Stolley ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 12:29:19 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mindy Fiala Subject: Re: women/lit/medicine My memory could be off a bit on this, but I think that women healers are mentioned fairly prominently in Alice Walker's *The Temple of My Familiar* and in a much more negative vein, of course, in *Possessing the Secret of Joy* in which a woman "healer" performs genital mutilation on both the protagonist and her sister. Mindy Fiala mfiala@cctr.umkc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 18:37:43 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "C. Horwitz" Subject: women's wire In-Reply-To: <199507132215.SAA25699@holmes.umd.edu> I read about a list for women called women's wire in MS Does anyhone out there know how to access it? Thanks for your help carol Horwitz chorwitz@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu by the way, the article on welfare is excellent -- a keeper ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 20:32:44 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Nicole M Rosenau Subject: the last word on mixing singular and plural Please, please forgive me, Joan Korenman, but I just have to say that my post was NOT in response to Joan Samuelson, whose post I had not yet recieved when I sent my message. In fact, I received her initial post and response to my post in the SAME Digest. Joan Samuelson's post was the sort of counterARGUMENT that I felt Judy Evans and Marge Piercy (who is a member of the list) deserved. Nic Rosenau (rosen014@maroon.tc.umn.edu) Philosophy Department, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA MINITEX Library Information Network, MN Higher Education Coordinating Board